Sarah Barry - The Mortality Doula

Megan Hamilton (00:02.46)
I'm Megan Hamilton and this is the Embracing Enchantment Podcast. Our guest today is somebody I have followed for a while and I am so excited. She's a professional tarot reader, mortality doula, and funeral celebrant. They love talking about all things tarot and death and we will absolutely be speaking to those topics. Please welcome Sarah Berry. Hi Sarah!

Sarah Barry (00:29.986)
Hello. Yeah, it's going great. Thank you for inviting me to be on this with you.

Megan Hamilton (00:31.444)
How's it going?

Megan Hamilton (00:36.874)
I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you for agreeing. I actually have no idea. You know how sometimes you just start following somebody. But I have really enjoyed watching, you know, what you've shared through the last, especially the last few years of being a mortality doula and walking through a process and

reading tarot and your take on the cards. And I've always been really curious to chat with you. So I'm so thrilled that you're here. And I'm sorry that you're having hot flashes.

Sarah Barry (01:16.033)
Yay.

yeah, I know. So I to get my fan ready for this. So yeah, it's a ride. think I'm, I don't know, because I practice Vipassana meditation, I'm used to observing sensations. It's just a sensation to observe and I'm more curious about it than anything. yeah.

Megan Hamilton (01:38.178)
that's good. Does that actually help?

Sarah Barry (01:40.878)
the fan or the sensation aware of sensation. It does help because it means that I don't start freaking out about it as well as like, long does this go for? What if I get it for like until I'm 70, my friends does or, know, it's just like, yeah, it's just, something that comes and goes and yeah, perimenopause.

Megan Hamilton (01:43.934)
know the awareness of the sensations.

Megan Hamilton (01:54.698)
Hmmmm

Megan Hamilton (02:04.98)
That sounds like a very...

Megan Hamilton (02:11.466)
positive and supportive way of managing hot flashes. I like to take a cold shower and extra estrogen.

Sarah Barry (02:23.822)
nice. Yay. Yeah, now I'm managing my supplements and my fan and awareness of sensation. I'll see how I go as time moves forward. This time next year I could go, have to look all the things. I'm no longer coping.

Megan Hamilton (02:25.29)
It doesn't.

Megan Hamilton (02:31.466)
Perfect.

Megan Hamilton (02:38.344)
Yeah, like, give it to me. Give it to me. Yes, I was I was actually amazed instantly the first night that I put the estrogen gel on my arm. I did not sweat through the bed and it was. The greatest relief I had had in quite a while. Anyways, OK, so.

Sarah Barry (02:55.842)
Wow.

Sarah Barry (03:01.294)
So.

Megan Hamilton (03:04.682)
I'm going to pull a card. I chatted with Sarah ahead of time, as I always do with guests, just to make sure that that works. And then they are gonna give their take as well after I mentioned mine. Okay, so we're just gonna pull a card for the collective, see what wants to come up, see what themes want to come through. I've been pulling the tower a lot lately.

Sarah Barry (03:16.642)
Good.

Sarah Barry (03:31.694)
Ah, ha ha ha. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (03:35.312)
Mm-hmm. Have you? Did you ever hear?

Sarah Barry (03:43.052)
There you go.

Megan Hamilton (03:43.326)
Did you ever hear Rachel Pollack talk about how she and other tarot readers were chatting? This is like maybe a couple months before 9-11 and everybody was pulling the tower all the time and they were just, have you heard that story?

Sarah Barry (03:58.35)
Yeah, yeah, when I went to the UK Tarot Conference in 2018, she was presenting and she told that story and yeah, it's pretty amazing and intense. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (04:14.11)
And you don't know it. Yeah, very intense. I mean, for me, sometimes the tower is just like, I'm working on something and I just have to like start over. I have to take it all apart and start over. That's sometimes what the tower will mean for me. And then sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's something much, much more substantive. Okay, let's see what wants to come through.

Sarah Barry (04:24.547)
Well.

Yeah.

Sarah Barry (04:34.296)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (04:46.25)
Queen of sorts!

Sarah Barry (04:49.31)
AAAAHHHH

Megan Hamilton (04:51.85)
Okay, so.

Where,

Megan Hamilton (05:05.64)
I think this is such an interesting card to get at this particular point in time. I've been talking a lot about how witches are going to take down the patriarchy. And I mean that in the sense that empowered people are the ones, when people have been disempowered and they find a way to empowerment, like through witchcraft, I think.

Sarah Barry (05:15.042)
Hehehehe. Hehehehe.

Sarah Barry (05:34.648)
Mmm. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (05:35.918)
then it almost becomes an unstoppable force. And so if we're looking at the cut ropes at the Queen's wrists, that to me speaks of creating your own empowerment and moving through towards sort of taking down whatever, or doing what needs to be done essentially.

But obviously we think about the cycles and the transformation noted by her butterfly crown and the butterflies and the moon cycles on her throne. there's also, with swords, often think of we're doing clear communication. There's no time for bullshit. We are going, we are speaking truthfully, we are saying what needs to be said.

even if it's pointy and difficult, and we are creating our own freedom because we know that nobody's going to give it to us. And then, you know, what's on the other side of that? If we're looking for new ways of organizing, which we kind of have to, then we know that it will likely start with

Sarah Barry (06:42.154)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (07:00.67)
the matriarchy or the a new way of bringing community centered people first ways of being together. Yeah, okay. What do you think?

Sarah Barry (07:11.086)
Yeah.

Sarah Barry (07:16.278)
Yes, yes, everything you said I think that and and while the one said we're just taking down the patriarchy because I've got just here right here is this little bag says drink tea and smash the patriarchy and inside it this is a beautiful pencil case or tarot deck case that's made by Marley Miles she's an amazing artist in Australia up north and northern South Wales.

And so I love her work. So I always like to get her things when she's making them. I am drinking tea, my fog lifter tea and smashing the patriarchy with you. And Queen of Swords is totally the it's like the peri-meto peri-meto card for sure. Just more likely to speak a lot more stress. I have no fucks with this. Come on. You know, it's like, let's just go. And I think as a collective energy, it's.

Megan Hamilton (08:05.492)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (08:08.374)
No matter where we are in whatever cycle, whatever our hormones are doing, as we've been speaking about already, that there is this opportunity to, you know, bring that clarity through. And I would love for there to be a world where young people, young women in particular, non-binary people, not having to, I know that they get to access that energy earlier in their lives rather than, here it comes with perimenopause once you get to your 40s and 50s onwards.

Yeah, I know a lot of that comes with confidence and, you know, strengthen all of that. But I guess that that call to bring in the matriarchy where children are protected and encouraged to, you know, can be safe in the world, that they can grow into strong humans that access their power and potency sooner rather than having it smothered by the authoritative figures in their world. So, yeah, Queen of Swords.

Megan Hamilton (09:06.206)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (09:07.766)
a collective energy to make sure that we, perhaps those who are starting to access that strength can help remove the barriers for those who don't have access to that strength in themselves yet, precisely because the systems that hold us bound to these particular gender specifications and all the things that can really just...

Megan Hamilton (09:20.507)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (09:36.226)
Get in the way of living life and being clear and truthful.

Megan Hamilton (09:41.897)
Yeah, I love it. And I love, know, that you really hit it there with the idea of, of it's not just us setting ourselves free, it's making sure that everyone else is right. It's it's using your sword for everybody, not just yourself. And that's exactly the way forward. It also you bringing up the children and thinking that if we truly are

Sarah Barry (09:42.754)
Yeah.

Sarah Barry (09:57.922)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Megan Hamilton (10:11.582)
getting to the no fucks left to give point in our lives earlier, then that also means that the children have access to figures who embody that kind of energy earlier in their lives too, right? So we know that when we see

examples and we grow up with examples, we're much more likely to be able to tap into that sooner. mean, you know, that's not to say that every teen wants to be like their mom, because let me tell you, that is not the way it is in my house right now. But one day, one day, I'm sure of it. OK, so I'm wondering.

Can you tell us a little bit about what a mortality doula is and how you came to the practice?

Sarah Barry (11:09.964)
Mm.

Sarah Barry (11:13.334)
Okay, so a mortality doula is another way of describing end of life doula or death doula. guess there's a nuance difference, but I don't mind if people call me death doula or end of life doula either, because it just helps get the point across. But a mortality doula, I started using that word because it more accurately describes how I work and that often my clients I meet with them long before they actually die.

Like with my friend Annie, three and a half years I was her doula for before she died. so, and I think all the clients I have at the moment are early in their diagnoses and some of those diagnoses aren't even terminal, but they're life changing and life limiting. So as a doula and every doula will work differently depending on what their previous life and work experience has been and what their preference is for showing up for people. So a palliative care nurse will show up.

in a certain way with clients that I won't because I'm not well-versed in the medical system in the same way that they are. And I can still accompany people to appointments, for example, but they might know the certain questions to ask because they've been right there in ER and knowing what happens in that particular space.

But for me as the mortality doler, I'm talking with people about the mortality because I've got experience. I used to work in a funeral home where I was a funeral director and I used to work a lot in the mortuary as well, building that role alongside a mortician. And I do have just a lot of experience. I know what happens behind the scenes and so I can make, I can help them, I can ask them questions to help them.

Megan Hamilton (12:31.338)
Hmm.

Sarah Barry (12:55.222)
make decisions about their own end of life care and where they'd like to go or what they'd like to happen. It's talking about things like cremation or burial or human composting if it's available, know, where you are, it's not in Australia. And just getting things in order. And also really for a lot of my clients, they just say it's just so good to be able to talk about this without someone freaking out. And so a mortality doll is often who's comfortable to talk about death, who's not gonna say,

you know, because if I am the person who has this really limiting diagnosis and I might die, you know, very soon, I want to be able to talk about things with my partner. if they're my partner would I know that she would talk to me about this. But it's them. go, you know, because it's not just about me what I've got to talk about. They've got to be faced with the reality that there'll be a time and quite an extended time where I'm just not going to be there. So they've got to face, you know, it's a.

everything's coming in, but for me as the doula in the professional role, I can just listen. I'm not also freaking out about, you know, I might think, I'm going to miss this person. You know, I can still have grief and sadness about that, but it's different for me. And my role is to help them feel a lot more comfortable talking about what they need to talk about and then help them then have those conversations with the people closest to them so that they feel more supported in that whole process by the community, not just one person being the doula.

Megan Hamilton (14:25.706)
And so you mentioned being the director of a funeral home. Was that kind of the way into this practice? Did you take a program? How did you come into this?

Sarah Barry (14:46.946)
Yeah, so the funeral directing was just something that kind of added on because I was in that business and it was a very young business at that time and so there was a lot of, you know, wearing many hats. But I first really stepped into this work and did what I'd say was dual work, although I didn't call it that at the time, was in 2005. I started volunteering once a week at Sacred Heart Hospice, which is part of St Vincent's Hospital in Sydney. And there's a specific hospice just across the road from the main hospital.

And so I would go there every week except for when I was away and I did that for four years. it was that process of walking the wards and companioning people. Every volunteer would be doing something different. I was one of the younger ones. I was 28 when I started and there was, I think there was another person around my age, but on a different day to me and some people in their 40s and...

but then it was mostly retirees after that. And so was this lovely intergenerational connection of me being shown the ropes by one of the long-term volunteers. And I'd walk around with another volunteer for, I think, the first month. And then they just trusted me to go and approach people in my own way. Some of the volunteers would do errands and change the flowers and do a bit of laundry for the patients. And I just found that

Megan Hamilton (15:48.042)
Hmm

Sarah Barry (16:10.894)
because I'm a Tarot reader and I'm just all about having conversations with people that I was just really comfortable sitting down and having conversations with people. And it was there that I really learned how to work that particular aspect of my intuition, trying to judge, does this person want me here or not? Because, yeah, if they're unconscious, I don't know, you know, or if they can no longer talk, I don't know. But then

Megan Hamilton (16:37.716)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (16:40.264)
I slowly but surely got over that fear and just because it's coming to my mind because it was this really profound moment where there was a woman who had been, she was about 10 years older than me and I'd been chatting with her every week for about a month and the last time I saw her she could no longer speak and she was lying flat and she had the rails up on the side because think she'd been trying to roll out of bed.

Megan Hamilton (17:05.706)
Hmm.

Sarah Barry (17:06.328)
I was standing there and I just felt so profoundly unsure. It's like, what if she doesn't want me here? Like she can't talk and here we are in this busy ward and she's looking at me. And I remember I was holding onto the rail wondering, should I stay or should I go? And then two things happened all in this one moment. She pushed her knee underneath my hand. And then one of the cleaning staff who would get, they were amazing. They'd get very involved in that. They'd be mopping as well chatting to the...

Megan Hamilton (17:13.034)
Ahem.

Sarah Barry (17:33.358)
patience and it was a very, you know, making them more as uplifting an atmosphere as they could. She pushed a chair behind me, you know, so that reflex thing when it hits the back of my knees and I just sat down with my hand on her knee and then we just looked at each other and just, you know, we're like that. I don't know how long we were like that for and she did die later that day. I wasn't there when she died. So I think, yeah, it's those, it's that training that really set me up and then I just started attracting.

tarot clients who are going through grief and who someone is dying or their care or they themselves are dying and amongst everything else. And then doing workshops about death here and there. And then in 2020, I did do an intensive online training, so it was lockdown, with preparing the wades, this Dula program in Australia, there's several here in Australia, and did that and...

and got this job working at this funeral home but I really stepped into the mortuary first and that's what really defined my practice in that way. So yeah, it's several layers as to how I got into this work but that's pretty much it.

Megan Hamilton (18:47.398)
Hmm. Do you find with your clients when you're in the role of doula? Do you does tarot ever play a role as well?

Sarah Barry (19:00.814)
Yeah, it does if they want it. Not everyone does. Or does it or is not necessarily necessary. Sometimes my doula clients might come just for a reading. So if we're not calling it a doula session, they just come in because they just want tarot the whole way. Or we'll be discussing something in a doula session. it just the questions they're asking, I'm like, you know, do you want?

Megan Hamilton (19:04.372)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (19:27.182)
I'm going to pull a card for this because there's a bit of a choice coming in and they just wanted to get a feel for the different ways. they're like, yeah, let's pull a card for that. I did pull some cards every now and then for Annie just in the final month of her life and just a card. I pulled this card for you and then I just send a little audio recording via WhatsApp and she'd get that. it would. Yeah. So there is room for that. And unlike in the way that we started this.

chat with each other with the Tarot card. There is someone that I do just pull a card at the beginning. We look at it, we consider it, but then we just talk about other things. And it's not so much about the Tarot reading, but it's just helping us land and get clear about the kind of storytelling that's going to be accessed today.

Megan Hamilton (20:18.682)
That's one of the things I love so much about tarot is it can it can you can it can be used in so many different ways, right? Opening up a conversation for example, or in this case opening up a podcast or even I mean, I use it with coaching sometimes and it's like, we'll get to a point in, you know, in the conversation where, as you say, there's a choice or we just want some clarity about next steps or what to do and

Sarah Barry (20:48.515)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (20:48.602)
You know, I don't know about you, but it doesn't always give you the most clear answer. Instead, it gives you things to think about. So you get to the answer in your own way, which is means you get to embody it a little bit more than just like being told what to do. But I love how flexible it can be for that reason. And yeah, I love that it's there as an option for the folks you're working with. I kept.

Sarah Barry (20:53.122)
Hehehehehe

Yes. Yes.

Sarah Barry (21:05.197)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (21:18.324)
thinking to myself that I should mention for you, for those who don't know, when Sarah's talking about Annie, they're talking about, yeah, I know. I mean, I'm very familiar. I'm like, yes, of course. somebody who, if you don't, you should, and you can go to Sarah's, Instagram to, that's funny. Something just made a loud noise in here and I don't know what it was, but maybe that was Annie who's just

Sarah Barry (21:26.392)
Yeah.

Sarah Barry (21:31.726)
Doesn't everyone know about any?

Megan Hamilton (21:47.723)
saying like, yes, go learn about me. If you go to Sarah's Instagram, you can see lots of stuff about sort of walking Annie through a terminal diagnosis to her end. And do you call it an end? What do you call it?

Sarah Barry (22:15.234)
Yeah, and death, final breath.

Megan Hamilton (22:19.582)
Right, yeah, they all work. But what I loved too was Annie had this huge party that I can't remember if you had a name for it, but it was where everybody got to go and celebrate and kind of do the eulogy for her while she was still alive. Can you walk us through how that went?

Sarah Barry (22:41.922)
Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And what I want to say also about Annie is that it was very much the community that held her. Like I was in role as Dula, but it's I just really feel like it. Everyone really stepped in and her partner was really she was really holding so much care and devotion and making sure that Annie's life was as comfortable as possible, particularly when she was because she lived with a lot of pain. And so her living wake.

it's a calling her a living way, but she called it her ultimate, her ultimate celebration. Like it's the ultimate party that she's going to be having. And she handpicked a few friends just that she knew had some event experience and just wanted to help and were available to help. we'd all meet via Zoom, you know, fairly regularly in the months leading up. And there were spreadsheets and people who were good with spreadsheets took care of that. And, and

Megan Hamilton (23:22.602)
You

Sarah Barry (23:40.358)
And everyone knew what to do and Annie was letting people know she wanted merch. So she'd call up a friend and say, hey, want merch, I want zines. And so there were zines about Annie and there was a zine that Annie had done about that beautiful zine about the DIY house that she and her partner and family built with friends and community. And yeah, so there's just a lot of that. were

drinks, there were shrubs made by her friend, Jenna Pye-Wackert, who's got an amazing small business called Pye-Wackert Traditionals. I'm not sure what they ship overseas, but it's good if you're in Australia. so all her, she makes these amazing tonics, but also these amazing shrubs and some of these lovely, they're kind of like a cordial, if don't know what shrubs are. And so all these beautiful non-alcoholic drinks, cause Annie had stopped drinking.

Megan Hamilton (24:27.562)
Sarah Barry (24:28.344)
There was all the amazing food because her partner Genevieve's an amazing baker and cook. so there was just, yeah, so much food and, you know, friends were instructed with, can you make this food? This is Annie's. So it's all Annie's favorite foods. And then we just gathered and it was really the structure of a funeral ceremony in that there's a beginning on the celebrant. There's an opening song, you know, but Annie's just sitting there on her throne and like.

Megan Hamilton (24:46.378)
Mm-mm.

Sarah Barry (24:56.514)
you know, to girls just want to have fun by Cyndi Lauper. And yeah, it was just like this amazing, magical space full of colour. And there were people who had said ahead of time they wanted to speak. So they all got up and spoke. And then there was an open floor and there's so many people wanted to get up. And then we finished with, although several songs, because several friends have already had made, had written songs for Annie, you know, over the years anyway.

And that was so beautiful. But the final song was Let It Go from Frozen. And of that was like Annie's song that just spoke so strongly. I know. And everyone's like, do we need to sing this song again? And was like, yeah, we're singing it. Because Annie would love it. And it was so poignant because we played it at her funeral and also at her memorial. you know, hearing some of the lyrics more at the funeral, like that perfect girl is gone.

Megan Hamilton (25:32.868)
Ugh.

Sarah Barry (25:56.038)
and just yeah, let it go. Let it go be one with the wind and sky. So it's, yeah, I love how cartoons can really hold so much magic and profoundness. So yeah, that was a good experience. And we also decorated her coffin as well. And she made a decision, because she only wanted everyone to feel comfortable. So it was out in the veranda. So for people who didn't want to participate.

Megan Hamilton (26:10.608)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah.

Sarah Barry (26:25.76)
and have a relationship with her coffin, didn't have to. But by the end, I think most people had gone out and I've got all these amazing photos and videos of people just drawing and painting and gluing pom-poms on. It was the most bedazzled coffin that I've ever seen.

Megan Hamilton (26:41.514)
Yeah, I can imagine that, you know, if you haven't had a lot of experience with death and dying, and so you haven't had a chance in real time to work out your feelings around it or your thoughts around it, I can imagine that it would be, it might be kind of overwhelming to think about, you know, decorating somebody's coffin.

Sarah Barry (26:42.658)
Thank

Sarah Barry (27:08.686)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (27:11.248)
But then at the same time, what a wonderful opportunity to to be able to work out some of those feelings in an environment that celebrated, you know, the life instead of feeling scared about about dying, which is, a lot of people. Do you do you have medically assisted deaths in Australia?

Sarah Barry (27:29.237)
Thank

Yeah, absolutely. I just.

Yeah, we do. We call it voluntary sister dying here. That's the legal name for it. I just want to just briefly say one thing about the Living Wakes. For that Living Wake for Annie, every single person there, including myself, it was our first time being involved in one. And so I just deserve just letting everyone know that you can all be complete newbies and bring something together that's really spectacular. So don't think, I need to have someone experience. No, you don't. Just just just do it.

But yes, we do have a voluntary sister dying. And that's the method that Annie chose to die with. And it was fairly new. So it became legally accessible in November of 2023 in New South Wales. It had been legally accessible in other states in Australia at that point. And yeah, so it was very early days. So she...

She died with voluntary sister dying within the first six or seven months. no, first eight, eight to 10 months actually of that being available.

Megan Hamilton (28:47.946)
Yeah, we have it here. I think it's federal. I don't think it's provincial, although I'm not 100 % sure on that. And it's relatively new as well. I think a little bit earlier than 2023, but I know lots of folks who have whose parents have participated in it. I know somebody who is an administrator of it and it just feels like such a

Megan Hamilton (29:23.418)
it feels like the right direction in terms of getting a say in how you'd like things to go and not having to suffer for longer than you need to.

Sarah Barry (29:37.004)
Yeah, Yeah, I think and I know that I did do an online workshop or very brief one that I wasn't fully awake for. So the time difference that was about, I think it's M.A.A. in Canada, yeah, medically assisted dying and

Megan Hamilton (29:40.084)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (30:00.078)
It does sound like there are differences, like I think it's a bit looser. The laws are very strict in Australia around it and so here you can only access if you've been given a diagnosis that you're not likely to be alive in six months time or 12 months if you've got motor neurone disease. Yeah, but I think I don't think it's that strict. It's certainly not that strict in other places like Switzerland and it's not that strict as strict in Canada.

Megan Hamilton (30:00.437)
Yeah, mate.

Megan Hamilton (30:23.146)
You

Megan Hamilton (30:28.434)
Right, right. And of course, now we're seeing another side of things politically where there's a whole other conversation where a lot of unhoused folks or folks who have, you know, really debilitating mental illness and who are also unhoused are being offered that or who are disabled are being say that again.

Sarah Barry (30:58.818)
Sorry, what was that? just, I, yeah, I'm still here. Can you still, can you hear me?

Megan Hamilton (30:59.23)
I missed you for a second.

Megan Hamilton (31:04.838)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Can you hear me?

Sarah Barry (31:05.678)
Yes, yes I can. Yay. Maybe it was my hot flush. I found out my microphone here.

Megan Hamilton (31:09.354)
Oh, Okay. The hormones are infiltrating the wires now. These are some strong hormones. Yeah. So in here, there's been some issues now where medically assisted death has been offered to disabled folks and to

Sarah Barry (31:17.719)
Hahaha

Megan Hamilton (31:35.93)
unhoused folks, especially if they have pretty unmanageable mental health issues, which, you know, is problematic in

Sarah Barry (31:48.526)
highly problematic, hey. And I think, you know, before it was legal in Australia, I did, when I was becoming legalized in Victoria, and I remember seeing an activist who gets around in a wheelchair talking about, because she was opposed to the bill, because she said, I'm paraphrasing hugely here, but basically it was saying,

I am not disabled, this system is disabled. And she was like doing this talk at the bottom of these stairs, she couldn't get in to the building to give her, you know, her opinion because there was no wheelchair access. And it's like, why are they making it easy for me to die, but impossible for me to live? And so that's why it's like, no, the issue here that should be invested into making, you know, break down these systems, why are these people unhoused and

Megan Hamilton (32:32.682)
Mmm. That's the quote.

Sarah Barry (32:43.692)
you know, why these people, you know, why is the 1 % not being taxed accordingly so that that wealth can be distributed to the community so everyone has an opportunity to have a more viable living experience and even joyful one. So yeah, that's yeah, I can see how that's very problematic. What's happening in your parts at the moment?

Megan Hamilton (33:03.782)
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's probably the next stage in the conversation of, OK, well, we start here and then you don't really you don't always know what the what's going to come up once you start something. It feels like a kind of I don't want to say necessary, know, something you might assume would be the next step. And then hopefully we get it right. And

Sarah Barry (33:05.698)
Yeah.

Sarah Barry (33:11.512)
you

Megan Hamilton (33:33.576)
we're able to clarify the rules a little bit further so that, and also use the information for good, right? To say, actually, you know, this is a problem, and what can we do about it, and how can we fix it? this is not the only option for people is being offered death.

Sarah Barry (33:55.084)
Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (33:59.211)
And here we are in 2026 having these conversations, I guess. So how did you get into tarot then?

Sarah Barry (34:08.864)
Okay, so I actually kind of find it funny that, you know, as someone who's psychic and been aware of it, you know, from an early age and, you know, then realizing that not many people were actually observing the world in the same way I was and go, okay, so I started to mask it to a certain degree. But for this being my career, I just kind of fell into it in a way. So I was in my early 20s.

Megan Hamilton (34:28.586)
Mm.

Sarah Barry (34:37.548)
I had just come out of some experiences that were really not great and I had really wanted to go right. I have to trust my intuition now. I actually follow it because I was ignoring it and all this fuckery was happening. So now I've just got to step what other people think for me in my life. I'm going to take charge of it through trusting my own intuition. And when things just started happening, I moved into a share house where

one of the women was attending these meditation classes. And so I started going along and it was different to the kind of meditation I practice now, which is Vipassana. And this was very, it was like goddess, goddess circle, kind of moon circle kind of vibes, witchy vibes. And it was a really great basis for what came next in my life and career. And tarot cards be brought out at the end of it.

sometimes and so I was curious about them but I'd never and I'd had a few readings before but I'd never been like wow Tarot this is amazing and then I was you know I was finishing my arts degree my finance degree and I was working in video store and I was just thinking a bit bored yeah what you know and I just said to the person facilitating the classes hey when you next do your Tarot workshop I want to do it and then a few months later she said that one was coming up

Megan Hamilton (35:40.17)
huh.

Sarah Barry (35:59.17)
And I said, look, I can't afford it right now. And she said, look, just come and pay me when you can, because there needs to be, there's only two other people, needs to be at least three. So I went and one of them dropped out. was just two of us after all. But the way that it was taught, very intuitive without the books, that's what I was struggling with. My sister had given me a tarot deck in 2001. I remember her coming up the stairs and she handed me this, the Rider Waite Smith. And she said, happy birthday, sis. You can become a professional tarot reader.

and which, sorry, my dog, Batley's here and she just went frr frr frr at that. She makes little amplification sounds while she sleeps. And I just thought that was, yeah, I'll become a professional tar reader even though I have not yet learned how to read the cards. And I had a real aversion to reading by, you know, just reading about it. And so after trying to read the book,

Megan Hamilton (36:35.535)
Hehehehehe

Sarah Barry (36:54.732)
realising how much there was to learn, I flung the book at the wall and said very dramatically, I'm never going to become a professional tarot reader. And then I forgot about it. But then when I started doing this workshop, it was all happening in a 10 minute cycle. Yes. And then it was classic, like early 20s kind of vibe. And then I did the workshop and it was taught intuitively. And I felt

Megan Hamilton (37:07.338)
You

Megan Hamilton (37:15.984)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (37:21.174)
I could wrap my head around it now because I was working in a visual language rather than a written one and I just got obsessed with it and then I just always have a tarot deck on me and I would just be pulling it out. I just gave so many free tarot readings to friends and family and they just couldn't have any conversation with me. They should I pull a card on that for you? And so I really got my experience, a lot of experience very quickly. So I made myself very available.

to learning through doing readings for other people. And then after a while they just started saying, hey, you should go professional, you're good, know, and I'm like, okay, no, I can't do it. And then I went for a tarot reading that I really didn't enjoy. But it was perfect though, because as I walked across the threshold and walking out of the shop, I told myself, I can at least do better than that. And then I rang a local metaphysical store that afternoon.

saw the manager the next day, gave her a tarot reading, got the job. So that's how I got in.

Megan Hamilton (38:27.306)
So neat. yeah, yeah, the book, mean, yes. I think when somebody finally realizes that they can have the permission to just allow their relationship to cards be what the expert is in that particular reading.

Sarah Barry (38:33.518)
You

Megan Hamilton (38:51.594)
It's really, it's kind of like the queen of swords. It's kind of liberating, isn't it? And it lets you really develop your own relationship. And so, you you mentioned that you've been, that you're psychic and so when you're reading cards, how much of it, how does the...

Sarah Barry (38:56.472)
so excited.

Megan Hamilton (39:14.314)
Like do your psychic abilities inform your intuition? Is it all the same? Who really knows what it is? It just kind of comes and that's what we go with it. Is that, the cards facilitate like.

Visions are things you need to say, like how does it all interweave with each other?

Sarah Barry (39:33.334)
Yeah, okay. So for me, I can't separate it out. Like they all can come together that when I'm talking it is the cards that are, you know, they're like these cue cards that they've got their own message and there's something sometimes it's more about the cards and because it's just so interesting the imagery or someone say, my God, that looks like my ex or whatever. Like there's like those things that happen specifically because they're working with the cards. But it all just comes in.

Megan Hamilton (39:55.658)
Hmm.

Sarah Barry (40:01.102)
at the same time. So everything I'm saying is based on how I'm feeling as I'm sitting with people. And I strive to live without belief systems wherever possible. And so I'm not ever going to name it, oh, this is the guides or this is the archangel or this is anything like that. Not to discredit that for people that feel comfortable with that language. It just doesn't work for me. It doesn't suit me. And it doesn't feel fully honoring of the fullness of all that energy can be and that I am an unenlightened human being.

who, could I possibly know what is totally real and totally not? it's, yeah, so for me, it's just feeling the energy and some way, sometimes a way of describing it. It's like there's this rush of energy moving across the table and I'm just trying to, I'm talking bit more quickly usually, and I'm just trying to talk to as much that I can feel as possible. And because I've got a highly, highly developed, I've got a very strong imagination, so I tend to,

trust my visuals less, but I do trust my feelings more. And I think also because, you know, after meditation, it's all about observing sensations that it's almost like, yeah, because I'm aware as I am that's that sensation is for me. was like, that's an unusual sensation. I don't think that's for me. So I'm able to hand that to the other person rather than keeping it for myself.

Megan Hamilton (41:08.7)
Hmm.

Sarah Barry (41:27.116)
if that makes sense. Yeah. We're just kind of talking about it's such a it is that how do we talk about this in a way that can sound kind of logical? I don't think we can.

Megan Hamilton (41:27.7)
Hmm, yeah, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (41:38.961)
No, I know it's true. And most of the time I find, you know, everybody has their own way of coming back to like, I don't know how I know, but I just do. once I trust it, it comes more strongly. Right. Like once I start trusting that and free. So as you're saying, because you have.

Sarah Barry (41:58.86)
Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (42:07.688)
you know, a really vibrant imagination. I'm taking this a step further, but I'm assuming that's you saying, I'm not sure if I'm just making this up, right? So instead you're going to go with the sensations which you've been developing through the meditation practice that you were talking about. And then for me, I might say, sometimes I just have this very strong urge to say something and I'll think to myself,

Sarah Barry (42:19.01)
Yes.

Megan Hamilton (42:37.642)
don't say that, that's stupid. And then I'll then it'll keep coming back and I just go, okay, I don't know why I have to say this, but you know this and 75 or 80 % of time the person's like, oh my god, that's this or you know, and you just think, oh, okay. I didn't really know why. And actually that came up in a episode a few weeks ago. Yeah, with swales.

Sarah Barry (42:49.326)
I'm sorry.

Sarah Barry (42:56.974)
and

Megan Hamilton (43:06.41)
the Friendly Green Witch she was on talking about how she gets those similar sensations when she's doing Reiki. She doesn't know why she just has a stronger, just say it and she just, you know, mentions it and then the other person has a response to it. And it's interesting too, because when you allow yourself to be the conduit, you don't really know.

Sarah Barry (43:13.368)
Mm.

Megan Hamilton (43:33.256)
why you're saying what you're saying or why it's coming to you, right? Like you don't, or maybe you do, right? But it does end up having such a meaningfulness to the other person.

Sarah Barry (43:45.154)
Yeah, for sure. Because I think a lot of it, and I remember this particularly my early days of Tarot, like I'd be just saying, because again, it's that thing is that I'm just going to say this thing. And so I'd be saying it. And sometimes I'd just be talking about, you know, lucky that every now and then I just have this really helpful, because everyone was older than me back then, really helpful type, just going, it's, I know it doesn't make sense to you, but it makes sense to me. So just keep going.

Megan Hamilton (44:04.522)
You

Megan Hamilton (44:11.69)
Hmm.

Sarah Barry (44:12.946)
I'm saying all these things and I do remember once just again very early on thinking like having no just to say things but thinking no that is just bonkers I'm not going to say that and so I don't and then wishing I had said it because in the context of the reading they share things I should have said that thing but now I can't say it because I like yeah I've already told you and so I did just

Megan Hamilton (44:35.214)
Mm, yep.

Sarah Barry (44:36.622)
on the train ride in this particular day that I was going to say no matter what came into my head, no matter how weird it is and then I was sitting there with this lovely woman, old enough to be my grandmother and I was, I had this feeling to tell her that the energy of the cows are really good for her right now and I was like no way can I say that but then I remembered my oath to myself. So I said oh this is going to sound really weird but the energy of the cows are really good for you right now.

And she just burst out laughing and said, Sarah, my husband and I bought 100 cows yesterday. And I've never had an experience like that again, but it was it was more like that information. Just go with it. Walking kind of unloose my unloose myself, unleash myself from the logic and just say it, knowing that sometimes people thinking, what's Sarah going on about? And that it might come make sense later. And people have said that sometimes that

Megan Hamilton (45:19.933)
Mmm.

Sarah Barry (45:35.96)
They said, yeah, thought last time, I thought you were having a bit of an off day. But then I, two weeks later I was listening to the recording and went, Sarah wasn't having an off day. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (45:45.496)
No, I needed. Yeah, that needed to be on the recording for me for later. Totally. Yeah, I like to do year ahead readings usually at the beginning of the year. And I love, you know, June, somebody gets in touch and said, how, how did you know? Like, this is so spot on. And I'm like, I literally had no idea what I was talking about. I mean, in the sense, I mean, I do, but I don't know.

Sarah Barry (45:53.582)
Sarah Barry (46:02.446)
Yeah.

Sarah Barry (46:06.83)
You

Megan Hamilton (46:10.718)
what it looks like on your end. Like all I can say is what's coming to me and what's going to come out of my mouth. And I'm ever pleased that it has, is helpful. But I don't often feel completely responsible for it, if that makes sense. Cause it's like, wasn't, I don't, I was, I feel truly like it was just a vessel. And I've been taking a Reiki program and it's, it's a similar thing. It's like, you just, you're just the conduit.

Sarah Barry (46:26.766)
Yeah, I know.

Megan Hamilton (46:40.582)
getting to observe it, is, in a way seems, you know, if I think about what I know of your work, it's you get to participate with other people. You get to facilitate, you get to be in partnerships and community and offer support. And how does that

affect you over time? mean, you've got a lot of grief things that you deal with on the regular. And you know, you come to have relationships with folks that you know, will be passing on. How do you manage your own grief?

Sarah Barry (47:25.004)
Yeah.

Yeah, how do I manage it? I will just say if you do, if the recording picks up any snoring sounds, my dog Valley is snoring right now.

Megan Hamilton (47:38.152)
Okay, we love snoring dogs.

Sarah Barry (47:40.812)
I sometimes say that in my wheels like there's not some randos gnawing in my office, it's just my dog. But how about Valley? Valley helps me with my grief. Like she's just so beautiful and she's just vibing and she's actually very attentive to big emotions as well. And so, you know, she looks at people a very concerned way. If one of if me or my wife have hurt ourselves physically or just having a bit of a bum time, she's like, all right, well, I'm just going to keep guard over you whilst you're

Megan Hamilton (47:44.426)
Hehehehehe

Sarah Barry (48:10.102)
lying on the floor or you know she's very much like that. So and grief walking with the dog has been really nice. This is like just after Annie died just went for a really long walk and this is like just going to keep on walking and we had this very very long long long walk and the dog was very exhausted by the end of it. I do have a therapist so I do have that process.

Megan Hamilton (48:30.442)
That's...

Sarah Barry (48:33.77)
Meditation my meditation practice hasn't been as strong as it used to be but it's still there and that I can come back to the breath when I've got big emotions rising up particularly if during when I'm celebrant at a funeral and If if I'm personally affected like by the grief just because I knew this person really well So there's I've them carrying a little bit more in myself, but I've got the professional hat on so I'm holding it but then That is knowing so loudly right now

Megan Hamilton (49:02.538)
No,

Sarah Barry (49:03.662)
And she's like running as well. She's like doing the running after rabbits or something. seeing, speaking to a crowd of people who are actively crying, sobbing, sometimes there'll be like lots of like loud sobbing sounds happening. Sometimes people just sitting there like with tears running down their face and like just little quiet sniffs.

Megan Hamilton (49:08.938)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (49:31.084)
sometimes I might have their head in their hands. There's a lot of different ways that grief is expressing itself and it's all in the room and I'm just like holding it. And so sometimes I just hold this pause and just come back to the breath and that just instantly calms that part of my mind down so I'm not getting emotionally caught up in everything that's happening in the room. And I do remember, if there's someone that I know personally really well who's living.

and they're in there and I can see them crying. just got to like, I see them crying and then I quickly move along and don't look at them again because that's, that's going to knock me a bit. So yes, the meditation helps. Stretching my body helps. Riding my bike, walking in the bush. I live in Katoomba in the Andarra and Gundungurra land, the Blue Mountains and in Sydney every week as well. That's where I sleep on.

Megan Hamilton (50:07.622)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (50:28.238)
Gadigal land in Sydney as well, a few nights a week for work. But just having these giant, amazing ancient escarpments and mist and yeah, blue highs. Yes, I did.

Megan Hamilton (50:41.246)
You mentioned Mist. You mentioned Mist. So I usually ahead of having guests, I have a little forum that I have folks fill out just so can orient myself to what they want to speak to. And I love that you brought up Mist. here was one of my questions. Like what is your connection to Mist? Tell us about why you love it so much.

Sarah Barry (51:10.638)
Well, I think it's always something I've been wanting more of in my life because my partner often wakes up before me and so they'll often take the dog for a walk, although with perimenopause I'm usually walking the dog with them now. I'm I'm up. don't want to, I don't want to stop anyone. But estrogen gel, that sounds good. But yeah, so sometimes they'll say, come back and say, oh, there was mist. Oh my God, I missed it. And, and then I had experience at school camp when I was, I don't know.

Megan Hamilton (51:36.106)
Mmm.

Sarah Barry (51:40.43)
12 or 13, I don't know how old it was, but a young teen and we were in these misty fields by the tents doing levitation things. Anyway, remember having this really profound experience of all of a sudden.

Megan Hamilton (51:51.654)
yeah. Yep. Sounds pretty, pretty perfect the course for 12.

Sarah Barry (51:59.022)
That's what we're doing. And they were all lifting me up. I said, my God, I'm so high right now. And then they'd go and drop me. And I dropped like about a meter. So they had actually lifted me with their two little fingers up quite high and it was all in this misty space. It was very magical. But when we moved to the mountains, it was in the summer and I just had no idea that summer and mist in the mountains is a really big thing. And so we'd be driving up at night with this mist rolling in and.

I don't know, there's something about when I'm walking through the mist, I guess it's all the negative ions, just like it's just all this moisture in the air and you can barely see things and people disappear and appear and it just feels really rejuvenating. It really wakes me up and I just, I guess it's helpful for the perimenopause and it's also just, I had no idea that it was this, that was the magical climatic condition that was missing in my life that I needed in order to feel just a lot happier and a lot more free. So yeah, mist.

Megan Hamilton (52:58.282)
Wow, wow. I spent several weeks in Edinburgh a long time ago and yeah, I was just, couldn't believe how much mist was there every morning for hours. then, and say again.

Sarah Barry (53:15.0)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (53:20.884)
I just said,

Megan Hamilton (53:23.434)
Yeah. But I do find that it changes my energy and it does feel like it's and I don't know if that's, you know, Macbeth and all of the different ways that we grew it, you know, the mists.

Mists of Avalon even and the like all of the different lore about mists. So there is a spookiness to it that you sort of automatically gives you like a prickly feeling right or like a heightened sense of awareness. Certainly there's that but then but there is also something actually very energy shifting about experiencing mist and

Sarah Barry (54:04.769)
Man.

Sarah Barry (54:14.798)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (54:17.962)
Anyways, that's just... I love that. I love... I love... We should all get to be with Mist more.

Sarah Barry (54:26.574)
I think so. And I think just what you said about how it can be spooky, it's because I do get, think that now I'm thinking about how there's like different nuances of mist and I don't know, just heard like in different cultures there might be like a hundred different words for the type of snow that they're experiencing. And yeah, sometimes I've like gone and go, yeah, the mist feels a bit like it's got stuff in it tonight, you know, and there's like, I might go back and hide. But other times like,

Megan Hamilton (54:28.85)
especially now.

Megan Hamilton (54:42.91)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (54:52.36)
Right.

Right.

Sarah Barry (54:55.554)
kind of walking around and it's just really friendly and lovely.

Megan Hamilton (55:01.194)
I mean, it makes sense. Yes, in Canada, our Inuit cultures, our Inuit people are said to have, yeah, 100 words for snow. Yeah, really, really fun. Okay, well listen, it has been such a pleasure to talk to you and I'm so glad I've...

Sarah Barry (55:16.14)
Mmm, nice.

Megan Hamilton (55:27.518)
got to learn about mist and mortality, doula-ing and the dog snoring in the background. of the things that, one of the things, part of the reason I started this podcast a year and a half ago was because of, you know, kind of what was starting to really show itself in terms of unraveling.

Sarah Barry (55:29.461)
Thanks.

Megan Hamilton (55:56.907)
of the systems around us and knowing that when we feel hopeful that actually, you know, I think I learned this concept from Jericho Mandibur and I keep meaning to say, do you know, do you know Jericho?

Sarah Barry (56:14.318)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Because we, I'm not sure where they're living right now, but we do, yeah, we hail from the same land. And I've actually, got out there, Neo Tarot is actually sitting beside me the other day, because I sometimes use it when I'm having a WhatsApp call to prop up with the right of way Smith to prop up. it's supposed to go, then I've been like getting it out and like looking at the cards and just how beautiful that tarot deck is. So yeah, I do know them and they're working.

Megan Hamilton (56:35.538)
right.

Megan Hamilton (56:43.402)
Hmm.

Sarah Barry (56:44.15)
Yeah, they do amazing things.

Megan Hamilton (56:46.122)
Mm hmm. Yes. I think it was it was I think I think the concept of of this was introduced to me maybe in their really older podcast. Anyways, it's the idea that when we are hopeful that change is possible and there's so much research on this.

then we are more likely to work towards change. If we believe that nothing can change, then we, meaning we don't have hope, then we are less likely to do anything about it. And so almost, you know, in and of itself, the idea of remaining hopeful as a choice to make sure that

Sarah Barry (57:18.317)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (57:41.897)
the energy stays stays strong for working towards change. That's kind of where this podcast came from, because, you know, lots of different spiritual practices, especially which adjacent and sort of more empowering spirituality allows us to to really break free from these systems and all of our entanglements within them. So that was a really long way of saying

How do you stay hopeful these days with... I'm just gesturing to everything for those listening.

Sarah Barry (58:11.596)
I knew.

Sarah Barry (58:20.142)
How do I stay hopeful? I make sure I'm staying in connection with community and that I'm spending time with my friends so that I'm reminded that I'm not alone, that I'm in solidarity. The Tarot can really help just get a feel for things. Getting home to nature as well because

Megan Hamilton (58:44.19)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (58:47.828)
Yes.

Sarah Barry (58:48.77)
There's just something so huge and extraordinary about all of that. And yeah, I know the risks are real and there is supreme danger and there are extraordinary horrors going on in this very moment. And a lot of people have died in very violent ways whilst we've been sitting here together. so like I'm aware of all of that, but I think I'm also aware that people are wanting to stay in connection with each other. And I think

Art is a really big thing of that, like people creating art together and doesn't have to be like, you know, the very conservative ideas of what art is supposed to look like, that how people dress can be a form of art. And, you know, there's ways we decorate spaces, just how we interact with people that, you know, that you might wear that extraordinary multicoloured coat just to do the shopping, like why do you need to wait for a party, just like go for a walk down the main street in it.

Megan Hamilton (59:27.156)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Barry (59:42.402)
You know, just kind of inviting connection and joy is definitely a way in which I find hope still remains inside of me.

Megan Hamilton (59:54.207)
Love it. Yeah, four of us friends, all perimenopausal started a punk band called Hag recently.

Sarah Barry (01:00:04.847)
HAHAHAHA YAY

Megan Hamilton (01:00:07.624)
And it is one of the most profoundly joyful things that I'm doing in my life right now. It's just, it's so much fun. Sarah, it's been really nice to talk to you and I deeply appreciate you coming on and chatting with me, even though we're in different time zones, we're on different

Sarah Barry (01:00:14.722)
Wow, that's

Megan Hamilton (01:00:38.474)
It's a different date for you than it is for me. That's always my favorite thing about when I'm speaking to folks in Australia. There's the the hemispherical, hemispherical is that the word difference just feels like yeah, yeah, see it is possible. There is time travel. is, you know, it doesn't have to be anything bananas. It can just be this. But thank you so much for coming. It's been it's been such a such a pleasure.

Sarah Barry (01:01:03.382)
Yeah, thank you. I've really enjoyed this chat. Thank you so much.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:07.182)
good. Okay. Now I pull out my clipboard again and I read up the wrapping. So you can find all of the information and takeaways from today's episode in the show notes or at embracingenchantment.com. Please subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts, leave a review or a voice note. We love getting voice notes.

Sarah Barry (01:01:15.213)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:31.126)
You can find out more about Sarah and where to follow them in the show notes or at embracing enchantment.com. Make sure you're subscribed because we have some exciting episodes coming up with a medium. I'm going to be talking about Reiki and so much more. Until then, here's to building an enchanted life.

I'm gonna hit stop, yeah.