Cult Mother returns with her bestie Tommy Vowles

Megan Hamilton 
I'm Megan Hamilton and this is the Embracing Enchantment podcast. We have another return guest this episode, year number two, which is so exciting. And this time she's brought her best friend. I decided to make this intro for my head instead of looking things up. So if I get things wrong, you'll have to tell me this is, this is what do they call it? Parasocial like scoping you out on the internet. Think I know everything about you now. Ready?

You know Hannah as the woman who literally found tarot like on the road and in a Christmas tree. And she's built a massive following and a gorgeous Patreon that gives tarot readings, teaches tarot and all things rebellion and witch essentially. And she just got married recently. Tommy is her best friend. And that's everything you need to know. Just kidding.

Hannah Joy Graves (03:50.574)
You

Hannah Joy Graves (04:01.966)
Hmm.

Tommy (04:11.571)
my god.

Megan Hamilton (04:14.052)
Just kidding. No, truly. He's the fashion creator whose work is uber goth. That's what I would call it. He's also an activist who really honestly walks the talk and supporting trans folks. And I believe the two of them were in a band. Were you both in a band together or no? A podcast is kind of like a band.

Hannah Joy Graves (04:36.583)
No, but we maybe should have been.

Tommy (04:38.973)
We should, definitely should have been.

Yeah, I feel like it's a modern day band.

Hannah Joy Graves (04:43.541)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (04:45.252)
It's just a chance for best friends to get together. And now you have a podcast together. So welcome Hannah and Tommy.

Tommy (04:49.042)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (04:52.674)
Yeah. Yeah, hi, thanks. Well, thanks for having me back and thanks for letting me bring my bestie.

Megan Hamilton (04:57.124)
I'm so excited. So for those of you who are not watching this on YouTube, just please go to YouTube right now and you need to look at Tommy's shirt because I think that really helps us set the tone for what we're going to talk about today.

Tommy (05:10.451)
It does set the tone. was picking what I gonna wear today and I was like, it's gotta be the iced out fuck iced t-shirt with the diamantes, yeah. yeah, and Haneska Fiat.

Megan Hamilton (05:18.596)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and Hannah's got Hannah's got her free Palestine. And what am I wearing? I'm wearing a punk punk rock queer record label. So here we go. OK. But I do want to know, actually, because I'm going to start shuffling my deck. Hannah, I don't.

Hannah Joy Graves (05:20.59)
There we go!

Hannah Joy Graves (05:34.124)
I mean, there you go, right? Like, punk rock, fuck ice, and free Palestine, we're off.

Tommy (05:35.323)
love.

Megan Hamilton (05:45.61)
know that I knew not that I know everything about you, but I don't think I knew you were in bands before.

Hannah Joy Graves (05:51.631)
Yeah, yeah, well was in A band. I, uh, I kind of grew up in the kind of DIY punk scene on the south coast of England. I say grew up, I wasn't being very grown up at the time. I was throwing pints of snakebite and black around and screaming my head off. Um, but yeah, I, I, I spent a little bit of time in a band so I've, made an EP and, uh, have played some sweaty shows and, but yeah, it feels like a long, long time ago.

Megan Hamilton (06:19.288)
Well, what was your band called?

Hannah Joy Graves (06:21.6)
Little Flags. Little Flags, yeah. I think there's a, I think there's a movie about Fugazi or something, and it was like a short on there. Everyone used to call us Little Fags. I was not actually upset about that. But it was definitely back in, it was kind of very positive, hardcore. It was a very, it was a real moment. Lots of playing in kind of youth clubs.

Megan Hamilton (06:25.572)
That's adorable.

Megan Hamilton (06:39.556)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (06:48.278)
and basements and you know it was never never the big time but that's the way that i kind of liked it

Megan Hamilton (06:54.206)
so I should tell you that I am now doing that. I'm in a band with three other peri-menopausal women, punk band, and we're called Hag. And it's the fucking best.

Hannah Joy Graves (06:59.724)
I love this. I love this. Yes!

Tommy (07:04.679)
Love.

Hannah Joy Graves (07:09.119)
Yes!

Tommy (07:10.78)
That's such a good name.

Megan Hamilton (07:12.088)
I know it's so good. So maybe you can get little flags back together and we'll come and tour Europe with all of you. Tommy, can do our you can do our merch. watch out everybody, because because we're we're coming to town. All right, so I'm going to shuffle cards and we'll pull a card just to

Hannah Joy Graves (07:12.398)
You

Hannah Joy Graves (07:22.602)
Yeah, totally. I think a reunion has been threatened.

Tommy (07:27.654)
I'll do the lyrics.

Hannah Joy Graves (07:41.684)
Honestly, I think there needs to be more peri-menopausal women with bands and just with microphones in general It's our time now. It's our turn

Megan Hamilton (07:41.938)
Ugh.

Megan Hamilton (07:47.126)
I just, fuck yes. It is our time, I know. And I will say this, we started this idea about three years ago. The BBC has some show with a very similar, it's like older, they're older than us. I mean, I'm the oldest. I think they're like in their late 50s, early 60s. And it's, I can't remember what it's called, but there's also like,

Tommy (07:48.028)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (08:04.887)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (08:15.896)
You know, as soon as you get on Instagram and start talking about what you do, the algorithm shows you stuff. There's like this podcast or this movement called Menno punks.

Hannah Joy Graves (08:24.532)
come on.

Tommy (08:26.194)
that.

Megan Hamilton (08:26.5)
So there is, it is happening. It's happening.

Hannah Joy Graves (08:29.398)
Yeah, well a lot of, a lot of the witch work around kind of perimenopause and menopause and this idea of the fire, the heat being something we have the opportunity to really get a hold of and harness, I've never felt more feral in my life. And when I leave the house now I like to say to my husband like, do, do I look like a threat? Do I look like an omen? Do I look ancient and foreboding? Right?

Tommy (08:53.156)
Hehehehehe

Hannah Joy Graves (08:55.692)
The standards have all shifted and for the better we're furious. You know, so I can't wait to hear hag.

Megan Hamilton (09:00.374)
Yes, I...

Tommy (09:02.61)
Yeah, and I mean, rightly so. I mean, there couldn't be more for sort of perimenopausal women to be screaming about right now in 2026. Like, my God, my God.

Hannah Joy Graves (09:11.278)
Thank you, Tommy. Thank you.

Megan Hamilton (09:13.91)
Yeah, yeah, you, you've hit it, hit the nail on the head. Fuck yeah. Okay, well with that gorgeousness in mind, how about you both tell us how you met while I continue to shuffle and figure out what the world needs to hear right now.

Tommy (09:32.467)
Do you want me to take this one, Hannah? And are we going there there? Like...

Hannah Joy Graves (09:36.814)
You

Megan Hamilton (09:39.128)
This sounds really juicy.

Tommy (09:39.635)
So, okay, so I rocked up to my first recovery meeting and Hannah was there with her two little dogs and I can remember thinking to myself, I don't know how all of this is gonna go, but that person needs to be my friend. And...

Hannah Joy Graves (09:41.89)
Yeah, yeah, let's go, let's go there, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (09:44.366)
Okay.

Megan Hamilton (10:02.398)
I didn't expect to cry this early in the podcast

Tommy (10:06.31)
had like kind of a long-term friend crush. She actually lived five doors down on the same street as me. And I used to see them walking around with their little dogs, with their twin peaks back patch and checked vans. And I was like, I don't know who that is, but there's something there. And we sort of knew a lot of the same people ran in the same circles, would have been, you know, partying in the same places, but our paths never crossed until we sort of...

reached recovery, which, know, our sort of recoveries have changed a lot over the years, our spiritual practices, sorts of stuff like that. But we've done that whole process together. We have grown so much in that time since that day that I saw you in a recovery meeting and knew that I wanted you to be my best friend. And I'm so proud of you in so many ways.

Hannah Joy Graves (10:58.134)
i'll stop it. i'll stop it. the idea of anyone having any kind of a friend crush on me as i was like dragging my bedraggled self around that part of berlin at that time is frankly hilarious to me to be honest with but it is megan. it's so spooky. both of our our dads are called steve or our parents live on the south coast of england even though we weren't born there. they didn't grow up there. both of our brothers are tree surgeons. like it's just it's so weird.

Tommy (11:17.07)
Yeah.

Tommy (11:25.348)
Yeah, there's so many parallels. Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (11:28.014)
And yeah, the fact that we literally lived on the same street literally like five doors down from each other having moved to Berlin Exactly the same time but in those years that we were there we are it despite like Tommy said like having friends and you dated so-and-so who's friends with this person You know even being in kind of like the subculture there the punk scene the goth scene like with this We cannot understand how our paths did not cross Until we both wound up in recovery

Tommy (11:45.371)
Yeah.

Tommy (11:53.368)
Until the moment that we both needed that person and we were those people for each other and have been that person for each other ever since. And we have, you know, in that time we've built businesses, like so much has changed. When we met, of us just had like kind of call centre jobs and were just like trying to get our lives back together after realising that we couldn't go on the way that we were.

Hannah Joy Graves (11:57.782)
Yes. Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (12:04.162)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (12:10.286)
Start a podcast.

Tommy (12:20.385)
And yeah, as I say, so much has changed. Like Hannah used to come over to my apartment where I lived in like just a squalor basically and would be sewing these NAF little collars in my bedroom while Hannah would be lying on the bed like learning about how to read cards. So our businesses really sort of started just like germinating at the same time and have grown alongside each other in a way.

Hannah Joy Graves (12:28.322)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (12:30.03)
Didn't we all?

Hannah Joy Graves (12:31.448)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (12:46.084)
that's, I love that story so much. yeah, like you, you, you both had to go through whatever you had to go through before you met because obviously, obviously meant to meet in the same way that I know about that. Hannah's told us on the podcast before certain things have happened that were absolutely meant to happen. I mean, your path to tarot alone is just, I'm like,

Tommy (12:59.494)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (13:12.334)
spooky.

Megan Hamilton (13:13.22)
Whenever I talk to people, I don't you know, we don't talk about our part. I don't know if you all do, but I don't talk about my podcast all that much like, oh, you have you listened to my podcast? But sometimes we'll be talking about terror. I'm like, but OK, but have you heard Hannah's story on my podcast? Because I don't want to tell it like how, you know, like all of the ways that you're like, well, it's so good. And that and that, you know, the paths converged at the same time in a very necessary way for everybody to get to.

Tommy (13:13.368)
It is.

Hannah Joy Graves (13:27.182)
you

Megan Hamilton (13:42.444)
you know, where you are now. How long ago is that?

Hannah Joy Graves (13:44.75)
Mm.

Tommy (13:47.887)
Nine years.

Hannah Joy Graves (13:49.526)
years well Tommy Tommy is gonna take nine years sober on the 4th of May so yeah it must be about nine years

Tommy (13:55.121)
Yeah, so just under 90 years.

Megan Hamilton (13:57.006)
Did you choose? Did you choose the Star Wars reference day?

Hannah Joy Graves (14:01.939)
Yeah!

Tommy (14:02.195)
No, but it's really good because everyone always remembers my sober day because it's just like, it's been a force be with you.

Hannah Joy Graves (14:05.825)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (14:10.879)
but it's also nine, right? Wait, five, four is nine and you'll be nine years?

Tommy (14:17.674)
yeah, wow, I hadn't thought of that.

Megan Hamilton (14:21.476)
does it mean? Hannah, did you have that same feeling with Tommy? Did he walk in the room and you were like, yes.

Hannah Joy Graves (14:28.813)
No, I don't remember this. No, immediately. In fact, I singled Tommy out. Like, I, I sep... Yeah, I sep... I separated Tommy from the pack almost immediately with a very similar like, oh my god, I absolutely have to be friends with you. I absolutely want to talk to you. But we're so fortunate in the fact that from that first kind of awkward, I suppose we should...

Tommy (14:30.123)
HAHAHAHA

Well you remember the first interaction, yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (14:52.745)
sit and have a cup of coffee together or whatever, we just really, think, just our backgrounds, our upbringing, our sense of humor, our interests, we just really, really clicked immediately and I actually remember someone very significant to you, Tommy, being like, so happy you two found each other, honestly. Honestly, and it's so good he's gay because that means, Hannah, you can't fuck it up.

Tommy (15:17.627)
Ha

Hannah Joy Graves (15:18.125)
Um, and it's just stayed with me at the because at the time I was a little bit how fucking dare you but actually What an astute observation really? Um, uh, are just bookends. I mean tommy's felt also very tall. We're both sort of six foot one We both wear black pretty much all the well, you wear definitely wear black the entire time, you know So like we we kind of cut quite a dash or did I guess like when we were stalking around berlin together?

Tommy (15:27.011)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy (15:34.523)
Yeah.

Tommy (15:38.705)
Hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (15:47.682)
getting into all kinds of trouble, but also learning together how to not get in trouble and how to try to look after ourselves and each other a little more than maybe we had done in the past, so.

Tommy (15:49.584)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (16:01.22)
It's really nice. I'm so glad you found each other. And here we are almost nine years later. congratulations, by the way, on nine years, Tommy. That's really amazing. And the card fell out. So let's take a look.

Hannah Joy Graves (16:13.537)
Yeah, well done, Tommy.

Tommy (16:15.473)
Thank you.

Hannah Joy Graves (16:18.797)
Let's take a look. I can't with that right now. The five of wands.

Megan Hamilton (16:20.498)
Hmm

Megan Hamilton (16:24.908)
all right, Hannah, if I do, if I do my take, will you do yours? Tommy, do you read? Do want to do yours too?

Tommy (16:25.393)
Love the one.

Tommy (16:33.335)
yeah, I can't really read cards. I know a little bit. I've never really had to because my best friend is called Mother Taro. never really had to learn, you know?

Hannah Joy Graves (16:37.441)
Yes you can.

Megan Hamilton (16:40.484)
Mmmmm

Megan Hamilton (16:45.102)
Fair, fair.

Hannah Joy Graves (16:45.887)
I love, I love it. Do you read cards? No, my best friend's cult mother.

Megan Hamilton (16:49.476)
Yeah, got it. OK, so here's why I think this card is coming up. And I think it's coming up in reference to what you both were just talking about, but also kind of on a bigger picture of where are we now going to be our fullest like the body language in this card always speaks to me, right? Everybody's quite open. Everybody's got their wand, which we think of.

Like the fire energy right now is bonkers as an airy sun with a sad rising and a Scorpio moon Friday. I think I'm going to stay inside and cry and scream. is it's been a lot. Yeah, that's I know. So Friday, like it's my moon. It's been my sign. Yeah. And Belting. It's just everything to coming together. So.

Hannah Joy Graves (17:24.762)
Oof.

Tommy (17:24.922)
wow. gorgeous.

Hannah Joy Graves (17:29.936)
or boil your head.

Full moon babes in Scorpio it is coming up. Yeah.

Tommy (17:40.581)
What on May 1st?

Megan Hamilton (17:48.194)
But I think this is it. it's it's it's the OK. So several things are coming. One is we have to learn how to when we share the same passions, even if we don't share completely the same ideas, we have to learn how to meet each other and come together and be able to like have the spar, but not in a wounding way, in a way where we're meeting each other. Right.

Hannah Joy Graves (18:10.925)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (18:15.864)
That's part of it because the thing about the five ones is nobody's hurt. We know in tarot that if somebody's hurt, there's a bandage or something or they're skulking away. That's not happening here. Everybody is bringing their full passion and energy into the mix and, you know, coming together. So there's obviously a conflict, but within that conflict, they're all still showing up. We're not shying away from the conflict. We're not leaving it. I think that's really important right now, especially

as we're watching everything completely decimate and we're going to have to figure out the way forward, which is we can't keep.

shitting on everybody constantly because we don't perfectly agree. That's one of the things. And the other thing is, where have you been holding yourself back from believing that you have a place in that sphere of bringing your passions and your ideas and your energy into the mix? Because maybe you think that person is bigger than you or more important than you. It's now time for all of us to come into the circle together.

bringing everything and like, you know, play in the big leagues. That's my that's why I think this came up. And I think in relation to what you both were talking about, it's. You had to both do the separate paths before you were coming together, bringing your your energies together, because then that became like a bigger thing than just each of you individually trying to figure out your lives and your recoveries. Now you have like a.

bestie to help you through that. we know that the power of that is like, that could be who knows what would have happened if you know if that hadn't happened in the way it did.

Tommy (19:59.098)
Love that.

Tommy (20:03.235)
Or if it had just happened earlier and we were just, you know, being complete messes together and then we never would have, like, what sort of our lives are, would we, babe?

Hannah Joy Graves (20:03.617)
God honestly.

Megan Hamilton (20:06.077)
Yeah, you weren't ready. Mm-hmm. No.

Hannah Joy Graves (20:10.753)
We actually have a theory that if we had met in the before times, we probably would have hated each other. Because Tommy and I are both people who love kind of being the center of attention. And obviously we both are able to identify all of the kind of very five of ones kind of chaos and drama and that kind of tipping or tension point at times in the past. And I think we're both very lucky that the things that we've been focusing on in terms of like, you know, you Ben, our personal growth or personal development have allowed us to.

Megan Hamilton (20:13.86)
Huh?

Megan Hamilton (20:17.764)
you

Tommy (20:17.784)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (20:40.285)
connect but in the in more supportive more helpful ways than the harmful ways that absolutely the idea of you and me having like a vodka-fueled slang in match though with our hair black hair like backcombed to the gods I just I some part of me still wishes I'd have lived to see it but you know we wouldn't be sat here today if we had

Tommy (20:49.648)
You

Tommy (20:53.584)
You

Tommy (20:58.448)
That's true.

Megan Hamilton (21:03.641)
I love it. Hannah, do you want to throw a take into the ring?

Hannah Joy Graves (21:08.287)
Yeah, I mean for me the five of ones, I mean I am a Leo, it's that classic kind of fire energy and I always think that this is quite an exciting card. I think there's opportunity for us to say, hey, if I'm not in the mood, not my circus, not my monkeys, right, nobody wants to get dragged into the comments section when actually we've got no good business being there and it's not actually going to help us move anything forward, right. But this idea of I kind of have to be in it to win it, like to figure out how to put these bits and pieces together and I love here the idea that

all of these sticks, we've got each of the five sides of the pentacle, right? The pentagram on the pentacle, my god. but this whole idea of this is where in connection with one another, what fire energy or one's energy has an opportunity to become grounded, to become tangible, to become something that we can actually work with. We're, we're gonna get there, but we have to embrace the kind of, there's a youthful exuberance here, it's kind of like we have to embrace being, being naive.

Megan Hamilton (21:53.284)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (22:05.993)
understanding that no one really knows what they're doing. So maybe it's okay if we don't as well. But I think this card for me today really speaks to this idea of collaboration over competition, which Tommy and I, it's been foundational to both of our businesses. And it's something that we have found ourselves talking about a lot recently in terms of the path forward for us out of where we find ourselves now and the kind of future that we are building, obviously not only for ourselves, but for future generations. And this whole kind of

Megan Hamilton (22:25.54)
Hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (22:34.975)
I always say, don't know, it's girl bot, girl moss instead of girl boss. Right? It's that whole like, what am I, what am I going to war for? Why does it need to feel like that? You know, like that whole energy or temperature gauge that is the five of ones, like why am I allowing myself to get so stressed? And does it move the needle actually in the direction that I want to go or we need to go together? But I think you and I have done our fair share of waving the ones around, right? You,

Megan Hamilton (22:42.813)
You

Tommy (22:43.642)
Yeah.

Tommy (23:00.133)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (23:01.215)
Conflict is important to growth but also recognizing when you can take a step back from it think is significant with this with this five

Tommy (23:06.756)
Yeah, yeah. I love it.

Megan Hamilton (23:09.442)
Yeah, and the conflict doesn't have to be harmful. It can be important. It's getting through the thick of the messiness and then coming out the other side and going, fuck, that was really hard. But I'm really glad we did that because now we got all that out of the way and now we can move forward with, you know, whatever togetherness we're going to take.

Hannah Joy Graves (23:13.643)
No.

Tommy (23:14.544)
Hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (23:29.805)
Yeah, I mean for me it's a huge topic with the conflict and community and not... people love to talk about community and I think people talk a lot about wanting to find it or create it or... but unless we're prepared to be uncomfortable we cannot be in community with each other. Right? We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna hurt, we're gonna hurt people. Oh 100 % yeah, you know.

Megan Hamilton (23:47.992)
No, there's people you agree with that really bug you.

Tommy (23:53.508)
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I think, especially in sort of community spaces, just thinking like, who is centered in the conversation here? You know, like, who are, what are the voices that we wanna be bringing to the front right now? I mean, you know, Megan, you were talking before about sort of where we're at with, you know, the stuff that's happening with trans people at the moment. And I just think if we are not constantly centering black trans women in our activism, then what are we doing, you know?

Hannah Joy Graves (24:23.159)
Five of Wands.

Megan Hamilton (24:25.23)
Five, yeah, there you go, done. Tommy, I definitely want, let's work on that a little bit, because I think that's a really important thing to talk about right now. But first I just have to ask Hannah, have you got no hair? Is all your hair gone?

Hannah Joy Graves (24:41.451)
Yeah, yeah. It has. Yeah, I shaved my head. Hot launch right here, right now. Obviously we did the... got... I think I was very on the receiving end of all of the messaging about the astrology of Leo and how we've just been through seven years of not being able to get a foothold, things being incredibly, incredibly challenging and I really, really related. So come the 25th of April.

Tommy (24:44.249)
obsessed.

Megan Hamilton (24:56.132)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (25:07.297)
with this big shift, this big out with the old, in with the new. That and the fact that the sun came out and I actually got quite hot. You know, and I am prone to a hot flush here and there now. When my eyelids are sweating, I don't need my mullet kind of stuck to the back of my neck either. So yeah, I embraced the shave and just took the clippers to it completely. It's something I've done before. And it's one of those things that I would say if anybody's like,

Tommy (25:14.67)
You

Tommy (25:19.171)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (25:34.525)
I said to Kev, I was like, you're have to get used to the amount of people, women especially, who were like, my god, I love it, I love your hair. And what they mean is, I wish I had the confidence, I wish I had the courage, it's still one of those things where so many people are like, I wonder what it feels like, or I wonder if I, and you're not gonna know until you do it. And I would really, really urge anyone who's ever thought about it, ever had that mad moment in front of the mirror with the clippers, just do it.

Megan Hamilton (25:52.6)
Mm-hmm.

Tommy (25:59.824)
I used to have very long, big, back-combed black hair. Like, big goth energy. Yeah, like, sort of very high, drawn on eyebrows and wouldn't leave the house without a full face of makeup. And that was like a lot, a big part of my life for such a long time. And I can remember just reaching the point where I was like, this has become a mask. You are not able to do anything without putting that face on. Because the thing with me is,

Megan Hamilton (26:05.774)
feel like I've seen a picture on the internet. Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (26:07.692)
Mmm.

Tommy (26:28.737)
Not only did I have this big black hair, it's naturally curly so I had to straighten it every day. Get it that big. It was full-time job. But then shaving it off was like a... I would... We would be getting ready to go to the club and it would start raining and I'd be like, babes, I'm not going. But I love your hair like that, it's gorgeous.

Megan Hamilton (26:35.35)
Straightening your hair. Yeah. And God bless you if the rain fell. It was a disaster. I know. I can't go. I'm going to look terrible in two minutes. I know the same. I straightened my hair for years. I used to use the iron like a literal iron. thank you very much. But it but like like ironing my hair, burning my ears constantly because we didn't have straightening irons like these.

Hannah Joy Graves (26:41.95)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (26:54.208)
Yeah.

Tommy (27:00.129)
Yeah. god, yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (27:01.932)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (27:04.772)
kids today that don't have to do anything. They never burn themselves. Um, I mean, I'm very happy for that. My daughter has never burned herself, but I think there's something a little badass about, no, all the hardships, the hardships of burning. Yeah. Had to burn my hair. Um,

Tommy (27:09.058)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (27:12.682)
Yeah.

They don't know what we went through.

Tommy (27:17.433)
Yeah. No, they don't.

Hannah Joy Graves (27:21.868)
Back in my day, when I used to burn my ears with the iron.

Megan Hamilton (27:30.412)
Yeah, but it's true, isn't it? Our hair can be so much part of our identity. it's so how did you feel that when you like what did you do?

Hannah Joy Graves (27:35.137)
Yeah.

Tommy (27:35.279)
for a Leo.

Hannah Joy Graves (27:38.167)
Well, like I said, I've, I've, I have done it before. This wasn't the first time for me that I've completely shaved my head. So I think obviously that, that initial, what do I look like? I kind of already had some idea. I was a little bit more prepared for it, but, I, yeah, I, I, I just can't be bothered anymore. I just can't be bothered. I think if we, if we're going to have to fight fascism.

Um, you know, if we're living in a world where realistically I like to say we could be trading our silver for potatoes at the end of the week, do you know, that's how it feels for us, you know, like who's, who's got, who's got time for hair? Um, who's got, who's got time? Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (28:16.42)
Mine is actually a weapon. I can hide things in here and nobody knows. But actually 95 % of the time it's up in a bun because I can't stand it in my face and I get like really angry and I'm trying to be kinder to my family. But Tommy, back when you decided like you realized that your hair was a mask and you

Hannah Joy Graves (28:35.04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (28:45.305)
What did you do? Did you just like cut it all off? Did you shave it off? What did you do?

Tommy (28:49.561)
Yeah, I just shaved it off. It was like a really quick decision and I just shaved it off. And it was a real period of adjustment because back then I was really quite sort of femme presenting. You know, as I said, I wouldn't leave the house without like a contour and like lipstick and everything. And it went from that to like sort of much more outwardly masculine presenting. you know, just the way that I was treated was completely different. And...

you know, when I look back on that, that makes me so angry. Like as somebody that was way more visibly queer, you know, like I would get in fights regularly on the night bus. I would have things thrown at me all the time. It was, it was really, it, it, it's hard looking femme and being outwardly queer. And I don't deal with that at all anymore. And in some ways, obviously that makes my life easier, but it makes me so angry that so many people don't have that luxury, you know.

that they can't just be themselves.

Megan Hamilton (29:49.124)
Mm Well, I mean, so now circling back to centering black trans women, one of the one of the questions I had and I think I knew this would, you know, eventually make our way here anyways, is if, know, especially as witches or people involved in kind of esoteric occult different practices, there's

Mostly in my circles, I know that it's not the case everywhere. There is activism. There is care about injustice, deep care, sort of as the as the fire for all of the work that happens and centering the people who experience the most harm. Is the easiest way for everybody, because if you.

Hannah Joy Graves (30:32.46)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (30:45.636)
If you are centering black trans women, you understand that everybody on the different levels of difficulty then gets the same respect, right?

Tommy (31:01.644)
Yeah, yeah, I think the reason that I feel the need in every conversation that I'm having to bring up the importance of centering black trans women is just because the stakes at this point are so high. The thing that really broke my heart when I started looking more and more into this is, I don't know if you've heard of the idea of V-coding.

It's not something that I would go into too much in the podcast because it is something that centers around sexual assault, but this is a practice that happens overwhelmingly to black trans women when they are incarcerated. And a lot of the sort of legislation that we're seeing very sneakily come in under this administration focuses on actually incarcerating trans people. And this is something that I think needs to be at the center of any activism that with relation to sort of

trans people in general. So that is why I always like to put black trans women at the forefront of that.

Megan Hamilton (32:01.784)
Yeah, yes. And you live in England.

Tommy (32:07.735)
No, I live in Germany, I live in Berlin. I'm from England, I'm from London. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I grew up in London.

Megan Hamilton (32:10.254)
you're still in Germany. Okay, got it. Got it. And so your administration in Germany is also starting to do this.

Tommy (32:17.664)
No, I'm talking about the US because I find that with when talking about this kind of thing, it's always good to look at the US and the UK because I feel like they're perhaps the most divisive governments when it comes to this specific issue right now. And you you notice that the US then has a knock on effect on the UK and then you start to see, yeah, exactly. And then you start to see these conversations happening in Germany and...

Megan Hamilton (32:19.778)
yeah, yeah, yeah, I know we all do, but I just wasn't sure.

Hannah Joy Graves (32:28.204)
Mm.

Megan Hamilton (32:40.204)
and everywhere.

Tommy (32:45.95)
other places in Europe as well. So yeah, I feel like I'm always looking to the US.

Hannah Joy Graves (32:51.168)
Well, the amount of people that, you know, will leave comments or things or bring the whole, you know, I live in, in Ireland, but like, well, you don't live in America, you don't live here. Why do you care? And you're like, have you got that little understanding of the nature of our world, the interconnectedness of it all, whether you want to refer to it spiritually or otherwise, like if you don't think that there are large scale ramifications.

Tommy (32:59.598)
Mm.

Megan Hamilton (33:00.324)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (33:16.064)
for people living in other places and other countries based on American foreign policy and every single person regardless of where they live, if the Lemkin Institute for Genocide is raising a red flag for trans people in the United States, people who care for trans people, want to advocate for trans people are absolutely going to be paying attention to that because I know from the cult and how honored and fortunate I am to have learned so much about the experience of trans people that

people in America, they are genuinely terrified and they have every reason to be right now. As Tommy said, the legislation and the things that are happening that aren't being spoken about are dangerous because at the point that they decide to kind of flick the switch, there's not going to be a lot that anybody can do to stop it then. So I think we all have a kind of, as Tommy said, we have a sort of responsibility to not go la la la la la.

you know, okay, I guess it doesn't really affect me because this is the whole what did you do when they came and took your neighbors? Right? Minnesota knows, right? Like this, really is like, yeah, obviously it's something we both talk about and we both get really upset about because we've got trans friends and people that we love and have both grown and learned exponentially from having trans people in our lives.

Tommy (34:22.402)
Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (34:22.424)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tommy (34:35.042)
Yeah.

Tommy (34:39.616)
Yeah, I mean as somebody that knows and loves trans people I just feel like it would be remiss of me to be able to you know step back and say this doesn't concern me at all you know these are these are my people and I think that for me like trans people are literally just like the the the human embodiment of the divine you know it's like it's just like I'm gonna cry sorry this is just like and it's just the idea that anyone would want to like harm these these people just makes me

Hannah Joy Graves (35:00.704)
Yes.

Megan Hamilton (35:01.508)
Hmm.

Tommy (35:09.058)
So angry.

Megan Hamilton (35:10.404)
Yeah, yes. And, you know, back to the point about me asking, you know, where you are living, it's because it's exactly what you were saying, Hannah, in Canada. You know, the president was talking last year. I don't remember when he stopped making Canada the 51st state. Right. And you're kind of like laughing over here. But you're also like, my God.

Hannah Joy Graves (35:28.076)
Mmm.

Tommy (35:39.534)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (35:39.766)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (35:39.9)
What is what could be the, know, if that became the mission and you saw everything like it was, there was all this subterfuge, like everything was happening behind the scenes. Anything that you got a glimpse of in the in the mainstream, they were 50 steps ahead already behind the scenes. And so in terms of trans folks, like it's it's it's having a direct effect on my trans friends here in Ontario, which is still, you know,

everyone's relatively protected, but certainly in Alberta, there's been huge, terrible laws created about, you know, outing trans kids to their parents and in schools and like not refusing to use people's pronouns unless their parents know like stuff where you're just like, we've done the work on this. We if we're going to Okay, so we do we want to talk science, we know the science, the science is very clear. It's been clear for

decades at this point. Do we want to talk about the financial implications? Because it's very clear that protecting folks is actually going to be the way that we're, you know, we're not spending ridiculous like what angle do you need? Or is it just is it literally just spreading hate to extremely marginalized group to give people something to, you know, lose their minds over and take away all the focus?

Tommy (37:07.426)
Well, do you not also think, I I often think that it's perhaps distraction and scapegoating. it's like, yeah, I mean, yeah, no, seriously. And it's like, the president literally would rather send his country to war than have people have conversations about who might be in those Epstein files. And I think that the trans debate is not a fucking debate, but the fact that people are trying to debate people's lives right now.

Megan Hamilton (37:12.9)
Totally. Nobody cares. Truly.

Tommy (37:36.746)
is just because they're trying to, it's a look over here strategy.

Megan Hamilton (37:40.482)
Yeah, same with Roe vs Wade.

Hannah Joy Graves (37:40.946)
I said to, I said to, I said to Tommy once, well mean that's the thing right, because we, it affects all of us. It's one of those topics where people are like, well I don't have to care about that, or maybe I'm not as involved with that because it doesn't affect me. Well it absolutely does. If you want to have bodily autonomy, right, if you want to have access to life-saving or affirming care, it's, it will and it does absolutely affect you and I think a big part of why,

Tommy (37:43.404)
Yeah, yeah, precisely.

Megan Hamilton (37:56.707)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (38:08.147)
Maybe that that that we've got we both have just a lot of empathy as like I said first and foremost because we know and love trans people I got I got taught the term I knew about the term trans dysphoria But I had never heard the term trans euphoria And when I started to learn more about trans euphoria and the joy that comes for with trans people being able to really embrace and express themselves in the ways that they want it was just like you said if you

Megan Hamilton (38:24.068)
Hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (38:34.655)
talking about a perspective in terms of any kind of understanding of divinity here in this experience. It has to be that expression of joy. It's just so, so authentic. but I, I just, I think for us as well being bullied kids, Tommy and I were kids who got picked on at school and that was really tied to our appearance. It was tied to as well, the gender binary. I had a guy pull his car over once and say, excuse me, love, are you a bird or a bloke?

and it was enough to destroy my confidence in that moment. I wanted to go home. I felt very complex emotions and feelings about it. I wasn't able, I was, didn't feel like I was ever able to perform femininity in the ways that people wanted. So I think Tommy and I, from our background of being mercilessly bullied because of the way we just naturally were, let alone the choices or decisions we then wanted to make about the way that we appeared in the world.

Tommy (39:22.689)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (39:27.763)
I think we've just got this very solid baseline of you should just be able to be whoever you want and present however you want and it really if you are not harming anyone and as you said there's no evidence that you are harming anyone right then why can't people just leave you alone just leave people alone

Tommy (39:44.513)
Yeah. No, there's no evidence that these people are harming anyone, yet we have mountains of evidence that the oligarchs in the government, you know?

Hannah Joy Graves (39:53.904)
thank you. Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (39:54.148)
And that's it. And that's it. I mean, that's it right there. That's the whole thing. It's like, it's, you know, why are we talking about bathrooms? actual children were harmed for years? Everybody knew it. Like, what?

Tommy (40:05.729)
Done talking about it, yeah.

Tommy (40:10.687)
No, it's crazy, I know.

Hannah Joy Graves (40:10.793)
The president of America is a rapist and a pedophile. We have more actual fact of that, right? I mean, I can go on and on. They have arrested no one in the States. No one has been arrested or charged in association with the Epstein files, no one, but women will be arrested for seeking an abortion.

Tommy (40:14.787)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (40:18.948)
Hmm.

Tommy (40:19.383)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (40:32.361)
Right? That is the trans debate. You want to have the trans debate? It's, it's in that as well, right? It's in these standards that we are applying that are arbitrary, that we expect everyone to adhere to. And I think we're in this huge collective awakening of just asking why? Why? Why do we care about the things we care about? Why am I upset about this and not upset by that? And I think some people are having their cages rattled in a way that they're just not ready for. When we see it,

Manifesting is this kind of lack of understanding and this hatred because they need someone to be angry with of course There's so much to be angry about but they are angry at the wrong people and are making it so easy for them

Tommy (41:07.629)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (41:16.29)
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's it. It's displaced anger. It's it's anger. Yeah, because I mean, we've all seen that too, where somebody is really angry and there and you can see that they're just, you know, like the the wrong thing hits them in the wrong way. And then they project all of the anger towards that because it's an outlet to be able to do it. And if people are showing you an easy outlet.

Hannah Joy Graves (41:18.794)
Yeah!

Tommy (41:43.351)
Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (41:44.516)
and I think, you know, let's, let's, well, in the show notes, we'll put places, that we all know about that you can go and, and, look to, to, to give support. How about so that you can learn more? you know, if you've never met a trans person, you might, it might not have occurred to you why this is so important. And so we'll give you lots of opportunities to look stuff up.

Tommy (41:57.696)
Absolutely.

Megan Hamilton (42:11.944)
and lend your support and read and make your own decisions. you know, if we're talking about witchcraft, if we're talking about activism, if we're talking about the five of ones, these are the conversations. I mean, we're all in agreement, but these are the kind of conversations that have to happen where you say.

you know, okay, yes, I'm pro abortion, but no, I'm not this. And then you have a conversation about it so that you can not skip the entire decision to work together to, you know, work for women's rights instead, you know, in everybody parts. And then you lose the entire connective tissue that had you together at the beginning.

Tommy (43:02.029)
Megan, you were saying...

you know, that if people haven't met a trans person, and I understand it can be very difficult to sort of form an opinion or to sort of understand maybe some of these topics. What I would say is a really wonderful person to watch out for is Kat Black, who is a black trans woman on YouTube, who is amazing at speaking about these topics. She's actually the person that coined the term, which is all over the internet now being co-opted by all sorts of people that shouldn't be using it, where she says, I will not share my body with any

who would not politically defend it which I think is honestly like the quote of the century as far as I'm concerned and she's just somebody that is able to speak about these topics from such a place of experience and somebody that would really recommend perhaps as a place to start.

Megan Hamilton (43:50.862)
That's a great idea. Thank you. And I'll make sure to link link her in the in the show notes too. OK, so I'm looking through my questions and I've already we've already gone through them all, which is amazing. Hannah. What cards keep coming up lately? Like this happens to me where I know in your readings, your readings for the cult readings for other people, are you reading for other people right now?

Tommy (43:55.436)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (44:07.595)
Hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (44:11.627)
Ugh.

Ugh.

Yeah.

No, no, I'm on a hiatus at the moment. I took a step back from, yeah, I was in the trenches for like five years and I've got a lot happening in my kind of personal world and my family at the moment. So my capacity is not where I would want it to be. And I've always said, unless I can give you full fat cult mother, unless I can give you my best and I'm, you know, I'm very, very fortunate that at this time.

Megan Hamilton (44:20.832)
No. I know it gets tiring, doesn't it?

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (44:49.479)
but I do have a Patreon. I do have the cult and I've had that support. I've been able to kind of focus more on that aspect of of what I do so I didn't have to have a financial freak out. But yeah, in terms of cards that come up though, fives, interestingly, pulling that five of ones. I cannot get away from these fives, but if we think about it, it makes sense because all of the fives are giving us struggle. Fives give us a struggle of some sort that is also a catalyst for growth or forward momentum through the rest of the suit.

Megan Hamilton (45:03.972)
That is

Megan Hamilton (45:10.818)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (45:18.281)
And all those five sit under the hierophant. The big five in the major arcana which speaks to us about what were we indoctrinated into, what were we socialized into, what were we taught, what were we told, what have we learned, and how do we perhaps owe it to ourselves to start seeking the other. And it's only through the challenges, if you like, of those fives that we start having to kind of ask ourselves where it is that we feel we do really fit into that bigger whole, how much it does influence our kind of sense of self.

Megan Hamilton (45:21.572)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (45:47.115)
And I think that that really connects with where we are at right now being in the fives.

Megan Hamilton (45:53.7)
being in the fives and this is wild for a number of reasons. But one of them is that I've had no less than three conversations this week and it's what Wednesday about the challenges that come up in your life and how they're actually opportunities to learn about yourself and come out the other side and be like, like I really, you know, I really got through that or we've really figured that out together or, you and, and you come out.

Hannah Joy Graves (45:56.234)
Hehe

Hannah Joy Graves (46:12.491)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (46:23.65)
Like we need to have those challenges. We need to have the, you know, the bits of suffering. And I mean that really, I don't mean all suffering is like, you know, glorious. I just mean that.

Hannah Joy Graves (46:28.789)
Well, I think we're gonna...

Hannah Joy Graves (46:35.735)
I think for me it's more that we're gonna get them whether we want them or not. Right? It's that whole idea of like, yes, like you said, it isn't always a challenge in terms of growth or, you know, I got really harmed for a long time in my spirituality of being like, what is the lesson? What am I, what is this moment teaching me? You know, and I'm like, actually it's that life really sucks and it's hard sometimes, right? It's okay to eat shredded cheese out of the bag at 3 a.m. in the cold glow of the light of the fridge. Exactly, you know, so.

Tommy (46:39.432)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (46:41.079)
Yes!

Megan Hamilton (46:55.748)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (47:00.376)
Better be. huh. Yeah.

Tommy (47:00.652)
You

Hannah Joy Graves (47:03.807)
For me, more and more, this idea of like, you know, being able to pause, connect, reflect, does it need, does it mean something? But also recognizing when you're like, maybe it doesn't, maybe today was just a bad day, maybe that is just a bad person, maybe this is something that's more helpful for me to kind of shake off than have to struggle to integrate, especially if it doesn't really fit or kind of make sense for me.

Megan Hamilton (47:25.412)
Totally. Yes, absolutely. I'm speaking more to kind of the bigger challenges that come up in our lives and the kind of being in the thick of like, like not just a bad day. That stuff. Those, those things. That's what I'm talking about. Thanks. Those things.

Hannah Joy Graves (47:32.883)
Mmmhmm.

You mean like all the genocide and the paedophiles? Yeah!

Tommy (47:43.126)
Just little things.

Hannah Joy Graves (47:46.059)
It's not funny, but we can't scream on a podcast

Tommy (47:51.296)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (47:52.6)
I also think that the levity, like, I don't think any of us are doing ourselves any favor. know none of us are doing ourselves any favors if we're just stuck in the thick of despair and thinking there's no way out and there's nothing but terribleness and the world is an absolute dumpster fire constantly and there's no joy to be had whatsoever. Like, I don't think that does us any good either. And I think

Hannah Joy Graves (48:18.623)
Mm. Mm.

Megan Hamilton (48:21.22)
I think, you know, sometimes we can get...

I'll use the word habit. We get in the habit of having that reaction because our behaviors can become habits, right? So you get in the habit of doing that. And then, and so again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not suggesting that we polyana our way through anything. In fact, the opposite, but I do think that staying in that supreme nervous system reaction, um, where we're

constantly feeling activated doesn't actually help either because it's, you know, I've said this before so many times and this is in the speaking work that I do, but if you're, if, if somebody's coming at you yelling and screaming, you're not going to, you're not going to change your mind. You're just going to put up your defenses and you're going to think that person's wacky and like, I don't pay attention to that person. If we really, and going back here, if we really want to be able to,

Hannah Joy Graves (49:13.429)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (49:26.052)
have conversations, then we have to come to a place where somebody can actually hear us. And that that's not even necessarily the people we agree with. Sometimes that's the people we really disagree with. And we're like, if if if what I want out of this situation is for this person, for example, to have any kind of compassion towards, let's say a black trans woman.

Hannah Joy Graves (49:40.756)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (49:53.942)
If I start screaming at them that they're just a fucking asshole and everything they think is stupid and they're absolutely like ridiculous and and they're not that's not getting through. They're not able to hear that in the moment.

Hannah Joy Graves (50:05.875)
Hmm Tommy

Tommy (50:10.152)
Yeah, I completely hear where you're coming from. I think that with some types of people though, you will find that you are hitting your head against a wall. And specifically I'm talking about like maybe the TERF community that are so bigoted and so fixed in their ways that you're not perhaps going to have the best time at convincing that person. But maybe the person that's a little bit...

Megan Hamilton (50:20.608)
100 %!

Tommy (50:38.555)
undecided you can say maybe have you seen this could I could I show you this there's been people in my life who have maybe not completely understood like you know I've shown up on Instagram and I for example spoke about how I was gonna do this run and I was gonna raise money for mermaids and I had certain people in my life be like it sounds to me that perhaps you're you know

getting a little bit dogmatic or your like they maybe didn't understand what I was saying and to be able to say okay I can maybe understand where you're coming from because I don't think you understand I'm gonna send you these videos and I think this will help you and then perhaps we can have a conversation but if somebody is coming with bigotry I have absolutely no place for that and I will get in their face and I will tell them to fuck off yeah

Megan Hamilton (51:05.134)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (51:21.7)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not saying I'm not saying don't get angry and I'm not saying, you know, like that. But I do mean if there's an if there's an opportunity. And I say this as a person who. Would get furious when I would hear somebody say something that I disagreed with or that I felt was full of injustice and I would get really angry and then I wasn't there was no.

Hannah Joy Graves (51:42.143)
Hmm.

Tommy (51:45.088)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (51:49.302)
nothing was getting through at that point, even if there was an opportunity. so, you know, similar to what you were just talking about, I had a conversation with somebody who ended up being a client and, you know, she said something really, difficult, let's say for me to hear about trans people. And I wanted to just, like, I feel myself getting so angry and so upset. And I was like,

this is an opportunity. So I've used all my fucking tools to chill out and say, could you explain a little bit more what you mean by that so that I understand because I have a different opinion. And then we and then I was able to in that moment show a different perspective and change that person's help change that person's perspective. And that's what I'm talking about. It's the it's it's not the the the

Tommy (52:44.245)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (52:44.427)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (52:47.364)
people who, it's not the JK Rowlings that are, we're going to be like, let me listen. If I just calm down a little bit and I have a conversation with what's her name, Joanne, don't worry everybody. Like everything's going to change. That's not what I mean, but I do mean that it is easy to, to, and, and get in the habit of, you know, like shrugging people off when sometimes there is an opportunity there.

Hannah Joy Graves (52:52.309)
Hehehehehe

Tommy (52:57.995)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (53:15.96)
to come together and help change our mind.

Tommy (53:19.423)
I think definitely if you sense that there is the capacity to change your mind, absolutely. But I'm absolutely past the point of being able to sit down and have a civilized conversation with people that are terfs, people that are Zionists, people that are racist. I don't have any capacity for that anymore. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (53:31.98)
No. No. And that's not your job.

Hannah Joy Graves (53:35.916)
I think essentially it's because the stakes are now too high. I think we used to have conversations like this and we were all focused on kind of humanity and society and the way that we were all gonna get on together. But I think at this point, even if we use Palestine and the Israeli genocide as an opportunity, you are either willfully ignorant at this point or you are someone

Tommy (53:40.255)
That's it, yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (54:01.717)
whose values and beliefs do not align with mine to the point I don't want to breathe the same air as you. And I totally understand that this is a war for hearts and minds. And I know firsthand as someone who does soapbox a lot, that it is the least effective way of bringing anyone on side or getting them to join the cause or get, you know? But ultimately, I also think that we're gonna waste a lot of breath in a time that is essentially already

Tommy (54:08.351)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (54:31.157)
dangerous. Wasting time with people who if they were prepared to stand for something would have done it by now. So what they need to do is shut up, sit down and get out of the way because we've got so much work to do. I can't waste my time educating you anymore. It's not my job. If it's not my job it's especially not the job of black trans women, right? Like...

Megan Hamilton (54:32.59)
Ticking.

Tommy (54:39.797)
Yeah.

Tommy (54:56.074)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (54:56.715)
Those of us that are, we are, we are accidental activists. I never set out to be any form of online activist. I wanted to read cards. I wanted to read Tarot and talk about spirituality and I used to do a lot of like love and light and creativity and you know, Tommy started a fashion brand to help people feel beautiful and like, and now we spend our private conversations with each other and had to start a podcast because we know that there are so many people falling through the cracks at the moment and we are not okay with it.

because the time for polite conversation has passed. It got left behind before Israel murdered 20,000 infants. You know, so that I think, you know, like Tommy was saying, there are some points where if I get like a, well actually, yes, some days I've got the capacity to maybe ask you about that, to not lose an opportunity in the war for hearts and minds, but also other times I'm kind of, and we worry about this, we worry that we've become these like.

Tommy (55:35.744)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (55:45.732)
I love how you changed your voice.

Hannah Joy Graves (55:54.549)
Weird, what is it, the skunks at the garden party?

Tommy (55:57.033)
skunks at the garden party you know and that that's actually the idea that we had for the next for the name of the podcast going forward because you know like certainly in my life there's been instances where I've sort of maybe pointed out to somebody maybe Starbucks wouldn't be the best option for the coffee that you're about to buy because they're actually complicit in the ongoing genocide and then all of a sudden you are the skunk at the garden party you know you've you've you've made it you've made it awkward because you've been the person that

Megan Hamilton (56:04.644)
really good.

Megan Hamilton (56:20.75)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tommy (56:26.056)
has stood up and said, actually, I don't think that you should be doing that, you know?

Megan Hamilton (56:29.892)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (56:30.185)
I'm everyone's favourite buzzkill with a buzzcut now.

Megan Hamilton (56:32.644)
Mm-hmm. That's your new tagline.

Tommy (56:33.13)
Hannah Joy Graves (56:38.537)
Yeah, but I think for me it's also the nature of my work change. Like part of the reason I step back from one-to-one readings was because I found it very difficult actually, workshopping with people across the huge variety of query question curiosity that is so based in privilege as well. You know, it's like all of a sudden I was in a world where I could be reading for a more marginalized person in America who's wondering, who has fear. It's not curiosity anymore, it's fear about

Tommy (56:38.58)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (57:09.087)
their neighbors. They're worried about the people in their neighborhood and how safe they will be and whether or not they're going to be able to leave. And if they leave, what effect would that have on children? You know? And like the amount that it was taking from me, because I think we should all bring some sense of who we are and some empathy to the nature of this work, you know? But I couldn't then go from that to someone who's like, I don't know, do you think he's going to text me back? Which, you know, I've got...

We've got all got lives and we've got complex lives and we're allowed to have our curiosity wherever it needs to be but for me that like leapfrogging Across the human experience at the intensity that we are all in it now Start to make me kind of crazy

Megan Hamilton (57:47.396)
Mm-hmm.

Tommy (57:55.37)
feel like the Tarot readers and the spiritual workers are sort of like the canary in the coal mine, aren't they? It's like, if you guys aren't doing okay, that really, like, I think speaks to the, you know, the collective consciousness is those that you know, showing up and having those conversations.

Hannah Joy Graves (58:01.254)
my god, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (58:02.02)
Hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (58:09.256)
Yeah.

god, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (58:12.942)
Yeah, that's a really good, interesting, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like getting whiplash. No, no, and I don't think, yeah, I think, I mean, it's certainly we're at like a pivotal point. But, you know, if there's no joy, and that's, mean, that's the whole, that's the whole point of the podcast was.

Hannah Joy Graves (58:20.767)
But we also can't doom and gloom all the time. We can't, we can't. And we do have to do that.

Megan Hamilton (58:37.924)
noticing what was happening and wanting to talk about different ways for people to have practices, to be able to just like get through day to day when everything was so bonkers. And that was, that was 2024. So God knows what we need now. Um, we need

Hannah Joy Graves (58:43.999)
Mmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (58:51.093)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (58:55.209)
Well, I had a similar thing. started in the pandemic and it was, you know, trying to hold space for people during an uncertain time. But as I said, a lot of the work that I did was around kind of creative projects or travel or like, you and it was about how do we make our worlds feel bigger and more freer and connect more with authenticity and with joy. And for me in the last couple of years, it's just been how do we survive this moment? How do we help each other to survive this moment? How do we become more aware?

Megan Hamilton (59:02.626)
We had no idea.

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Joy Graves (59:23.131)
of spirituality as this great interconnectedness rather than this how well am I as an individual that's so pervasive in kind of western spiritual practice which is inherently linked now to patriarchal capitalism and commercialism as well. I keep banging on about it if they if they if it's a book you have to buy or a course that you have to take or you are bucking up the wrong tree immediately I there's a lot of people out there really trying to capitalize I think on a lot of the fear and the uncertainty

of because of everything that's happening geopolitically at the moment. And I, I think people just need to be wary of what it is that they feel they are seeking to sit with themselves long enough to kind of really get close to what that is. and start thinking about what tools are available without us handing our power over to others, whether it's our Tarot reader or our, you know, that, that whole idea of the work, I think for

for me and for other people at the moment is that whole idea of how can we all bolster each other and focus on where we are as collective and the power inherent in that rather than this whole idea of what's wrong with you and how can I fix it because if anything the last few years have taught me that there was never anything wrong with me that teenage me was actually incredibly on point and right about a lot of things and I had that literally systematically kind of beaten out of me by society over the years

so I, I don't want to be on team what's wrong with you and how do we fix it? I really want to be on team. There's nothing wrong with you and we're going to have a revolution and overthrow this government. That's what we're going to do. Yeah, done.

Tommy (01:00:57.546)
You

Megan Hamilton (01:00:58.724)
Done. Great. I will join your team happily and let's do it.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:01:04.426)
We ride at midday because dawn is a big ask.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:10.712)
As long as I'm in bed by eight, that's fine.

Tommy (01:01:11.53)
You

Hannah Joy Graves (01:01:12.978)
Yeah, yeah, as long as I've had coffee and it's maybe a half 11, 12 o'clock we ride it. We ride then.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:19.16)
Yeah, and we have to have breaks for peeing and the sweating that will happen because there will be there will be so much sweating. right. Listen, it's been a joy to speak to both of you today, and I really appreciate you coming on and talking about really important things. And how do people how do people catch up with you?

Hannah Joy Graves (01:01:25.746)
Yes, absolutely numerous P-Berrics. Yeah.

Tommy (01:01:26.356)
and little trades.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:01:37.659)
Of course.

Megan Hamilton (01:01:47.044)
It is just in the Patreon that you can hear the podcast, right?

Hannah Joy Graves (01:01:51.091)
Yeah, so with the podcast, we obviously have just been through this whole boycott Spotify because Spotify were actively investing in the IDF and IDF technology as well as donating money to Trump's inauguration. Waze is on that list as well. I was using Waze. Stop using Waze. So when we did the podcast, Waze is Israeli, it's a navigation like Google Maps thing for driving. it was anyway, anyway, but Spotify and everything, we were kind of like,

Megan Hamilton (01:02:08.248)
What's Waze? I don't even know what it is.

Megan Hamilton (01:02:15.812)
okay.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:02:20.596)
God, Apple, God, Spotify, God. We kind of felt like the overlords had a lot of control already, because we've built businesses that were very kind of built based around meta and Instagram and are trying to undo that. But we decided with the podcast, we were like, let's publish it in Patreon. You can join for free. It doesn't cost you anything. You can listen for free. It also lets us put it straight on YouTube. So you can also go to YouTube.

Tommy and Hannah and this and that, but it means on Patreon as well, if people want us to stay ad free, independent, they can chuck us a few quid for a coffee every month. And that's the way that we're trying to kind of keep it, keep it going. We just didn't, it just didn't feel right for us at the moment to be like, it's everywhere that you can listen to podcast, to Spotify, because we would actively encourage people actually not to go to Spotify. So, but it's an, you know, Megan, a minefield and a nightmare. Because a whole heap of people,

I think would have found us and heard us if we were able to properly, you know, utilize the tools that are available.

Tommy (01:03:21.641)
Yeah, but I mean, we started the podcast after having recently deleted our own Spotify accounts and gone through all of that. So it wouldn't have then felt right at that point to start chucking it all on Spotify.

Megan Hamilton (01:03:24.643)
Yep.

Megan Hamilton (01:03:37.412)
Yeah, yeah, it's is one of those things. It's like I didn't choose capitalism, but I still live in it. So how can I not die and

Hannah Joy Graves (01:03:37.598)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:03:45.876)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy (01:03:46.855)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:03:51.058)
It's a really tough thing to- it's a tough dance to do these days. It really is. it really is. Like I saw-

Megan Hamilton (01:03:54.156)
Yeah, I think and I think you just have to like be right with yourself and make the decision, make the choices like as best you can within like that. That's the thing is being intentional about every choice that we make now. Right. And it's like all the things you used to just do. Somebody was saying the other day, like, take your pictures off of Facebook. That cannot be your repository for you for 10 years of family moments because those guys can just shut it down or, you know, there's been

Hannah Joy Graves (01:04:05.799)
Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:04:22.185)
Yeah.

Tommy (01:04:22.983)
Use it to feed AI.

Megan Hamilton (01:04:24.164)
talk about. Well, yeah, that's exactly. But there's there's so anyways, it's it's it's these like everything must be to the best that we can as intentional as possible. And if you are choosing to stay somewhere like on Instagram or whatever, there's you've decided that for a reason. And there's, know, like sometimes it's it's still important to have a presence in these. Like when I left Twitter, I was like, oh, how could I leave Twitter? I've been on Twitter for so long. I was like,

Hannah Joy Graves (01:04:24.926)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (01:04:54.0)
I fucking hate this place. I cannot do it. This man is terrible. I'm done. And it was like out. And slowly I'm just going to live in the backyard.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:04:54.473)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:05:06.067)
I do think we're gonna see a mass. think we're gonna, yeah, well, I saw a meme the other day that was like neurodivergent women attempting to make moral choices now just lives in a hole in the ground. It was like the onion or something and I was like, that's pretty perfect. Right? That's pretty perfect.

Megan Hamilton (01:05:19.118)
Sounds divine. That's the dream. It's cool.

Tommy (01:05:21.788)
It does.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:05:26.153)
But I do think we're gonna see like a mass exodus from those popular social media platforms that Millennials have gotten so used to. And one of the reasons we decided to put the podcast on Patreon is because I've had such a great time with Patreon over like the last half a decade and I found that it's a way of keeping a place personal and we wanted the podcast to feel personal. We wanted people to feel like we were there.

to talk about things that maybe other people aren't talking about, to kind of keep people company. But we absolutely also wanted somewhere where people could leave us comments, or they could send us DMs, or they could, and to create like a little community kind of around what we've got going on there. So it just, for me, Patreon was a no-brainer because I think it's just a platform that I am already incredibly familiar with. And a lot of the tools and things that they've built and created and kind of offered.

over the last few years are really keeping pace in terms of there is RSS. We can put it from here everywhere. can, you know, so we've been, we've been, it's it's ticking along, babe, isn't it?

Tommy (01:06:26.12)
Yeah, we just need Patreon to not invest in military AI.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:06:29.321)
Yeah, well look at this point if they do I'm apps. I'm done, right? I'm I'm yeah. Yeah Yeah, we'll just just roll me in i'm done. Um Yeah

Tommy (01:06:33.137)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Retirement.

Megan Hamilton (01:06:35.524)
The backyard hole is ready.

Hahaha!

Tommy (01:06:42.153)
You

Megan Hamilton (01:06:44.878)
Cover me in moss. The true moss girl.

Tommy (01:06:46.537)
Dip me in chocolate and throw me to the lesbians.

Megan Hamilton (01:06:50.052)
I love it. Okay, listen. Thank you both so much. I love you both and I'm just so thrilled that you're here. All right, this is where I do the, I've got my clipboard. Are you ready? Find it all about Hanny.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:07:03.753)
Megan, it's been a joy today. Thank you for having us.

Tommy (01:07:04.969)
Thank you, Megan. That was been fab.

Megan Hamilton (01:07:21.06)
Find out just kidding. Okay. Find out all about Hannah and Tommy as well as takeaways from today's episode in the show notes or at EmbracingEnchantment.com. Subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review. Leave a voice note. Tell me who you want to listen to as well. I would like your ideas about who you'd love to have on the podcast.  Bye you both. Thank you so much. Bye.

Hannah Joy Graves (01:17:03.028)
Do it, do it, do it. Bye, thanks, Megan, bye.

Tommy (01:17:03.209)
That's the name of the episode. Alright, bye!