Patrick Hallahan: Music and Magic

Speaker 2 (00:11.04)
I'm Megan Hamilton and this is the Embracing Enchantment podcast. I came to learn about the work of today's guest on a long ride in my brother's truck on the way to my dad's farm for our annual birthday trip. My brother put on a CD and said, you're going to flip. A year or so later, I had a mesmerizing experience at my first time watching his band play in Nashville. My guest has toured the world doing what he's loved for over 20 years.

He's a three time Grammy Award nominee. He's been a cartoon character. He's a foodie and a dad. And he gave me my very first quote that I could use for music press. And I promptly spelled his name wrong. Please welcome the drummer from my very favorite band, Patrick Hallahan of My Morning Jacket. Patrick, I am so happy to talk to you today.

I'm so happy to talk to you too. Thanks for having me. Make sure you misspell my name in the ad mat for this. we have to do it on purpose. Just stay with consistency.

My kid wanted to Google you and so she ended up spelling your name the same wrong way that I spelled your name.

With an eye? that how it was? Yeah. Yeah, well that's what it sounds like. That's a logical mistake.

Speaker 2 (01:29.038)
When you're a kid, absolutely. When you're doing like press quotes, it's probably a good idea to get a person's name, right? Anyways, OK, I'm so pumped and I really had to check myself when I was coming up with the questions for today because I have so many possible questions and avenues to dive into. But I keep reeling myself in to stick to your transformative new album called Is and the ways that music is magic. One thing I wanted to say is

I it was like, I don't think it was today, but it was either yesterday or tomorrow that I was at Bonnaroo when you all were at Bonnaroo. And I was on that road trip with my best friend. Do you remember the story?

Of course, I remember. I remember you all. We hung out in Huntsville. No, everywhere. Birmingham, Alabama. Yeah, that's right. I remember that trip. What was your friend's name? Jen? Yes, there you go. Oh, cool.

That was the first one.

Speaker 2 (02:24.408)
Jennifer Fossett. Best selling author Jennifer Fossett. Yeah. Jen and I were going to America because she had just been accepted into Iowa's university for writing. We were going to come across and we decided to do a road trip because we wanted to hang out together and we picked the dates. We picked the city. Literally two days later, you all announced a tour leading up to Bonnaroo and you were hitting the same

cities on the same dates almost universally and I was like what what it was it was bonkers.

Synergy is the coolest thing ever, I swear. It's like one of those things where you have to be a good listener and pay attention to what the universe gives you. It makes me so happy.

Also on that trip, every time I found a penny, made a wish. I don't know if you know this either. Every time I found a penny, I made a wish and every single one of my wishes came true. And they were wild wish. Like it was unreal.

What did you wish for? If you don't mind me asking.

Speaker 2 (03:30.88)
Weird stuff like, don't, I can't even remember right now. Like there's some big stuff happening at home that I wished for that was like working out. Like, hope it doesn't rain at Bonnaroo and then just like bigger sort of like personal things. I think I wished that I would get to play with you once as well. And then that came true several months later as well. Like it was just like one of those weird, yes, synchronicity breadcrumbs as my friend Amy calls them, just like those little clues where you're like, okay.

Pay attention and just go forward. Try not to overthink it, just do. Let me pull out my tarot deck, my trusty deck. Have you ever had a tarot reading before?

Great. I have, yeah. yeah, totally. yeah.

good, okay. So as I'm shuffling the cards, I'm just going to pull one to like set the tone and you know, think about themes. You've been in the band since 2002?

Yes.

Speaker 2 (04:24.92)
Okay, but I think you were friends with folks beforehand, right?

Yes, I've been friends with Jim since the summer between third and fourth grade. We were in our first bands together. And then I was friends with, we all recorded, all of our friend group kind of recorded at the above the Cadillac studios on the farm that Tennessee Fire at Dawn and it still moves recorded at. But yeah, I've just, I was in and around the whole time and apparently it was.

Supposed to be the first I was told this later that they were going to ask me to be the drummer initially But I had joined the band that Jim I joined a band with the guys that Jim left to form my morning jacket And he didn't want to step on their toes They had to go that so I'm drummer number three, but I toured at dawn

You're drummer number one for me.

come on now. I pay her to say that.

Speaker 2 (05:29.166)
Okay. It's true. And I can't actually accept American chicks, so we'll have to talk about that. So the group of people who currently make my Mori jacket have been together since 2005. 2004. Yeah. Okay. What does it take to keep a band together? And we're talking major tours for over 20 years.

Hahaha

Speaker 1 (05:43.374)
2004.

Speaker 1 (05:54.574)
That's a really good question and something that we've had to kind of find out along the way, you know, it's just like a marriage. It's just like a long term. It's a polyamorous marriage. It's a, you know, it's like a long friendship. You are different people than when you're together for that long. You're different people than when you started out, you know, and you've grown together and sometimes you grow apart. You know, I think what has kept us together is gratitude.

just really thankful for each other and the unique energy we feel when the five of us get in a room together or on a stage. It's something that we go and play with other people a lot and keep coming back because it feels right and feels really special. just a deep love for each other. mean, more than anything, it's just love and context, I think, are the main components of longevity for anything.

It's just being, you know, empathy, being able to, you know, if somebody is losing their temper or in a bad mood or something like that, it's not, you can't just write them off. You have to, you have to understand like what they've gone through that day or where they're coming from. And, and obviously you have to protect yourself and you don't put up with like an abusive situation, but how we've managed to go on as long as we have is literally just, we love each other and

we almost didn't make it. You know, we almost broke up in 2016 or 17 and took a two year hiatus basically. And, that, uh, you know, that, that was certainly illuminating stepping away from it and learning what it felt like to not have that. And I think all of us agreed that it was better together than apart.

love that answer because love is like the first thing and certainly like that's a huge theme of is. And really, I mean, if we were to get into the nitty-gritty, like that's an ongoing theme throughout pretty much most of everything you do and not just like albums, but how you are like out in the world as people as individuals and as a group. There's a lot of sort of agreement it seems about like what's important and what isn't.

Speaker 1 (07:54.37)
Big time.

Speaker 2 (08:15.43)
from the outside anyway. It always seems like there's a consensus of this is how we're going to go forward. This is what we want to put out in the world. This is where we want to go to. I think it also really speaks to each of you in the way that you had that time apart and were able to then assess how meaningful it was to you and know that you're going to come back into it and work through whatever it was that had you all decide to part ways in the first place. And that's like a

like a double commitment.

That is a double commu, you're right, it's almost like renewing your vows or something like that, you know? I've never thought of it that way before, but I think we had a vow renewal in 2000. That's right, thanks. That one's you.

the next video. You don't have to add that to your check.

Okay, so I'm to pull a card for us and just see what wants to come up. So this is a universal card for everybody. And it's just themes to focus on. Two of Wands. Head on over to the YouTube channel. And you should anyway, because it's fun to see people's faces. But also you can always get a better look at the card. Two of Wands is about kind of having it all and looking beyond that and knowing that the world that you've created might be a

Speaker 2 (09:34.764)
you might be ready to move past that, right? And expand and open up the world. And certainly that talks to what we were just talking about. It talks about touring. My dear friend of mine, who is a coach and an author and a very magical person, Jericho Mandibur, once said to me, it's your birthright to dream as big as you want. And when you notice yourself stopping yourself and saying, well, that couldn't happen for me or I don't know how that would ever happen. So it's never going to happen.

Big time.

Speaker 1 (09:54.798)
I love it.

Speaker 2 (10:04.746)
Instead, what if you work through whatever those little binding pieces are and allow them to fall away and allow yourself to really dream big? And I think also in times where things feel hopeless or impossible, what if we allowed ourselves to dream of what it could look like? What does it take for that? And so we know that wands are in the realm of fire.

We associate them with spirit and passion and growth. And I'm wondering if this is an opportunity for all of us to if we're feeling a certain way about certain stuff, what if we allow ourselves to believe that there is a better world out there and what might it look like and the world that maybe we knew is is small, smaller than we thought. And now we need to dream big. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I do. my gosh. Like, tell me my brain just went a little bit because, I think two prong here. I think that the limitations that we put on our imagination and the worries come with age. children do not feel that children are just like, my God, the world is amazing and holy crap. That's a, that's an insect and it looks so cool. And this color is beautiful and this tastes bad.

blah, I don't want that. You know, like it's just like this animalistic, beautiful raw exploration of, of life that gets tamped down over time with, with some good lessons. Like there are some great like governors that are put into our lives to keep us from stepping into a burning bush or, know, like not being able to swim. Those are terrible examples. But I guess I know, but my, my point is that,

exam.

Speaker 1 (11:57.546)
I think in order to embrace what's going on around you in everyday life, you really have to nurture your inner child first. And I try to do that so many ways. Obviously I have, I have to adult 98 % of the day, but that doesn't take away from little Patrick. Like that kid that's still amazed by so many things and hopeful of so many things and can see like

the good and in many aspects of life. And that hope comes from my inner child. And I think that here's the second prong of that is, okay, focus on nurturing your inner child so that you can have that wonder. And then you can apply that wonder with your adult mind to expand your consciousness and see beyond the obvious things in front of you. Like the world that you think is around you is so much more expansive.

you're just looking at it through the, the confines of what you know. And that's why education and travel and human interaction are so important and elemental in the human condition that we learn that our viewpoint is but a one little portal and a giant, giant array of, of consciousness. And so when I see that tarot card,

Like that's immediately what I'm like. My brain just went, okay, you got to nurture your inner child and then you got to take that energy and apply it to everything that you've learned as an adult and together adult Patrick and, and little Patrick and adult Megan and little Megan work together to this hopefully progressive consciousness that you get better at as you get older. Does that make any sense?

I feel like I just talked for like 90 minutes, that's what I took from that card.

Speaker 2 (13:56.908)
Yeah, I love it. And that's what I love about tarot cards is that they are first of all, they're obviously part of a structure. And so I love that there's like symbols and structures and archetypes. But I also love that they are like keys that unlock your imagination and can also help you tell a story and see things beyond. Because sometimes when we put too much focus on a specific thing, like just in the moment, it's hard to see it. But if we use another tool to unlock or join up to like co-create

creativity or imagination or beyond. And I also think and this speaks to something you said earlier about the band's dynamic. It sounds to me like everybody has emotional integrity and flexibility all the time obviously, but there's an awareness of this is a unit and we protect the unit. can't just fucking lose my shit right now or if I did or if I do somebody else is going to get it and not just come back at me and I don't I don't know if that happens.

Sometimes I'm sure it does.

Not really. No, can honestly say there has never been. I won't say never like right before we went into the hiatus. I mean, it was never like he did, but there were definitely arguments and also to clear the hurdle. were arguments like Jim and I had to get right. He'd be the first one to say it too. Like we, we both were, you know, at odds. was really battling some, some mental demons and I was, you know, battling some alcoholism and so was he.

So gosh, two of those things together, we, that's super fun.

Speaker 2 (15:32.288)
And like, however long you guys have been friends, he said, grade three. Have friends from grade three.

yeah. mean, just, it's, I mean, most people don't, know, but you're right. It's, it's a level of respect. It's, I mean, just like a marriage, you don't cross certain lines that you can't take back. You don't go there with people that you

love. Yeah, it's like protecting the herd from cheap words and immature actions is so crucial to a healthy relationship. My band is still together because we don't cross that line. Because no matter how mad we get, we don't bring that energy to it. We channel it in other ways, calm down and then talk about it like mature adults. Because that's what we owe each other.

And that's it. But you're all on board with that.

Yeah, yeah, total. It wouldn't work. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't the case.

Speaker 2 (16:29.482)
Exactly. And I think that emotional flexibility and the commitment to growing together, doing better. When you make a mistake, you own it and then like make a change. that also speaks to what you were talking about with the world and the two of wands, which is it's the decision of knowing everything that we know, having been hurt the ways that we've been hurt. And I mean this like

globally, not necessarily in a band and deciding to still be curious, to still remain hopeful. Like I always say that hopefulness as an adult is a choice because you know what's out there in all the ways, right? So the bad, certainly, but also the good. And so it's not like bypassing. It's not ignoring. It's not pretending like everything's okay or, you know, love and lighting everything instead.

I'm laughing so hard at that just because that little passage started as such a sweet thing and yeah, I know exactly what love and light yeah, and now it's almost like like a leftist thoughts of prayers or something, you know There we go. Yeah, there we go

How about live, laugh, love? Okay. So speaking of, you know, emotional flexibility and togetherness and love, I wonder if you can talk to us about a time when you were all playing together, when you experienced something profound or had a feeling of synergy. And I'm betting that there's multiple, but I'm going to let you choose whichever one just comes to you.

The moment when we felt synergy.

Speaker 2 (18:07.842)
Yeah, or like you kind of had a profound experience together.

Well, I would say with it, it. Well, not every time it does happen. Luckily it happens a lot. That's why I'm kind of like, God, what do I talk about? Cause I really do. We have a lot of those moments together where we're just like, how that was really wonderful. I'm so glad to be in this room with you all right now. but I'm we do totally. We absolutely do.

Like you actually say those things to each

I will say that with this particular lineup and it's really cool. So last year was the one-eeth anniversary of the 2004 Bonnaroo performance that we did where it rained and all that. That was, we got to go back and really, we made a little short documentary on it. Bo helped produce that, but it made, what that made us do was go back and kind of like talk about that time in the band. And really that was when Bo and Carl.

My brother was at that one.

Speaker 1 (19:06.488)
were becoming part of the band for the first time. But the, what you're asking me, maybe the, the biggest profound moment of this, this lineup that's been the lineup for two decades now, we, our first one was really at that Bonnaroo because it was pouring down rain. was in the middle of a thunderstorm and this day and age that would have never, like we would have been yanked off that stage of five seconds. yeah. There was like, look.

I mean, for good reasons.

I look at Jim Barefoot on that wet stage, just walking across wires. And I'm like, you know, I kind of want to get back to that danger a little bit. You know, like there was, there wasn't a cell phone out there. Yeah. mean, I'm glad he didn't die obviously, but it's more like the reckless or the, just like people weren't overthinking things that were just kind of doing it. And maybe there's some.

a foot.

Speaker 1 (19:58.922)
ignorance to that, but whatever. My point is, that we were in a situation where we were like, do we get off stage? And we just kind of all looked at each other and were like, fuck, no, we don't get off stage. This is like, we, take this and we turn it up even more, you know, like, and that's when that was a really profound moment with those two. That's when they became band members because

The three of us knew that we would go into the fire and that would be our last breath would be finishing this moment. And they did too. And we were like, okay. This is gonna happen. This is real. And from that moment on, it's been profound moment after profound moment. mean, they're the best.

Oh, I got tingles thinking about that. And I mean, you know, from the audience's perspective, same, they felt it because I know I remember my brother just saying like they were part of it. I don't don't even exactly. It was everyone together. It was his own thing and maybe a bit of divine intervention to make sure everybody stayed safe. And what and that there's footage of it because I don't even know if I have I don't I have a few photos of that road trip that we took. We didn't have cameras on our phones.

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:13.774)
We weren't, we were kind of a bit more in the moment. And I think that's what you're speaking to as well, which is, and also you're 20 years away from that. So you've got a bigger team. You've got more people who are, there's insurance. There's like, there's a lot of stuff. Bonnery was like two, one or two.

That was year two.

Yeah, that stuff. Once you get to a certain place, I mean, if you guys want to start playing small startup festivals again, maybe you can have those dangerous experiences. But. Grow. Yeah. OK. All right. I'm putting it together next year. You heard it here, everybody. OK. And on this on this line, we know that music can be.

We're in

Speaker 2 (21:59.032)
transformative. Certainly your instrument alone, drumming has been a part of all kinds of different rituals and ways to summon different states of mind. read something or maybe Amy Miranda mentioned this, who was a previous podcast guest. The beats that they use in raves are the it's the same tempo that the drummers use in shamanistic journeying.

Do know what journeying is? It's when somebody like who's trained in this and has all the proper protocol plays a drum and you go into like a deep transcendental experience and it's the same beats per minute. I guess, yeah, I guess so. Is that what the rave was? Yeah, it's something about like your heart rate and everything. And so like it literally puts you in a different experience. know, we think of protest songs, we think of

Sure.

Speaker 1 (22:36.654)
120.

Speaker 2 (22:50.828)
music that has messages. I remember when Evil Urges came out, that seemed to be a direct response to the political climate at the time. Let's just say, am I right on that?

I would say that was a part of it, Everything's always a part of it. You how you've written albums. It's like you're a product of your environment.

Okay, and.

Speaker 2 (23:09.206)
Right. Yes. Okay. But would you say and this is a complicated question and you can take it in whatever direction you want. Is music inherently spiritual?

Speaker 1 (23:24.59)
I would have to say yes, because it's the most, my opinion, it's like the most natural form of human expression or art for that matter. Maybe we don't single out music, but just artistic expression in my opinion is, is, our reaction to, amuse, and you can call it a thousand names, but you're reacting to a muse that's bigger than you and you're feeling things that you don't.

have words for, or you don't quite understand and you're just trying to capture that feeling in the best way you can. And that's why lyrics are so important, but sometimes I don't even like, I'm, I'm more of like a mood person. And like, I definitely listened to the meanings of lyrics, but there are a lot of songs where the lyrics are silly or, know, like don't really fit the mood. And it's more about like,

what people do when they're just blocking out their rational mind and they're just kind of being human and just feeling and being stewards to something much greater than them. So in that sense, I I find, I think artistic expression is like the most spiritual thing.

Pam Grossman, who is a recent guest on the podcast as well. She has a book coming out. She's a her podcast is called the Witch wave and she's she's incredible and she's talking about creativity in terms of spirituality and her experience as a witch and all of that. And that and the general consensus is creativity, art, magic expression. Like it's all co-creation between your particular entity and consciousness, which you referenced early.

or the spirit world or whatever the case. It's not it's a bigger thing than just you which also my morning jacket feels like its own thing. Does that

Speaker 1 (25:25.73)
Thank you. I mean that, like a very deep thank you.

thank you.

We don't have a choice. We're given this choice. Yeah, we don't have a choice in this. That's what it sounds like when it comes out of our circuitry. You know, like that's, that's what like we're, we're all walking around the same energy. We're all walking around the, we're all capable of harnessing whatever this stuff is that's around us. And I don't know what to call it. Some people call it God. Some people call it the universe. Some people call it whatever.

Right. We don't have it.

Speaker 1 (26:02.958)
we're all walking around and we all have the same stuff around us. And it's all how that sounds or feels or tastes or, or, you know, it's all because of our abilities to process that, whatever that is. And I find that fascinating. Like that to me just blows my mind. Every time I think about it, I call it having your antenna up because we're all walking through radio waves all the time. We could listen to a radio station right now if we wanted to, but we don't have our antenna up.

You put that thing up and it sounds the way it does going through you. That's why it's so deeply spiritual because it's, it really is like you being in tune with your surroundings and, in a very like logic defying way.

It's being present in the moment, also which is another theme I find that comes up a bunch and is concepts of time. Like what is time? What does it mean? What's before? What's after? Where do we begin? You know, and I love that it references earlier record. There's that section of, I'm really bad with song names, but Golden gets referenced, that Dawn gets referenced, and I don't even know if that's on purpose. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about.

to know and try.

I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (27:18.19)
I did. I made a screenshot of it and then I just like escape my mind because again, I like to be as present in the moment as possible. there's beginning from the ending like all of these math. Actually, I think that's probably what the song is. There's so many references to time and timelines. And I find that very topical right now as well. There's a lot of evidence that shows that there's multiple timelines. Scientists like astrophysicists have proven that their

Of course, I it.

Speaker 2 (27:46.976)
at least is the possibility of multiple timelines happening at once, right? And also that time doesn't actually exist. And we know that, like we made it up and that's okay. But if it isn't what we think it is, what is it? And is it those moments that we have? And this is why concerts, I think, and live moment artistic expression with groups of people are so important because you're all working with each other's energy.

but you're also feeding from the energy of the people who are listening and we are also receiving. So it's this like synergistic, like working together as its own thing, which I think is what you were talking about a couple of minutes ago. If you think about it in the moment, it's gonna wreck it. You kind of just have to be that part of your brain's coming and going, wow, this is, and you're like, shut up. No, just be present.

And I can tell you as somebody who has been at concerts of your band for over 20 years, I remember very specific moments and details of the first time I watched you all play, which was when I was just getting to know the band and it was at the exit in Nashville. I think you had to leave because you, think Patrick had a little bit too much to drink the night before. had to go in the back and

No, I got

I got s-

Speaker 1 (29:16.206)
No, had a bad meal. Yeah, I got food poisoning. I made it through the whole regular set. And then I did. I didn't make the encore. So Jim did an acoustic. Yes. Exit in. I forgot all about that.

And it was intense.

Speaker 2 (29:30.19)
You were barfing

commitment, but I can tell you that I remember watching everything happen and just being like, I don't think I ever felt that way at a concert before and I play music. I've been in bands. I've dated people in bands for a long time. Like I've been to a lot of shows and I was just like, this is really awesome. And ever since then, I don't think there's ever been a time where I've seen a show and I've been like, that was okay.

Like not really their best work. I don't know how many times I've seen you, but it's got to be a lot. It's a lot. And so what is it? And I think that that happens with lots of bands and certainly certain music speaks to certain people's rhythms and like life experiences and who knows why you like what you like and whatever, whatever. But when you can have that kind of awe and joy and reverence at something that everybody else is feeling.

there's not a lot that's better than that.

You're right. mean, well, first of all, thank I'm shaking my head because I'm like, you're blowing my mind with these memories in this discussion. and also you're just thank you for the sweet words. It's really like, we don't think about the effect. It's just really kind. Thank you. But on a, on the topic of the importance of concerts and

Speaker 1 (31:09.344)
restaurants and festivals and ren fairs and comic book conventions and like all this stuff. People getting together to celebrate their interests and humanity is so important now more than ever because we are so divided and we are so screen oriented as a whole that

Getting that stuff out of the way and just being people is so important. Feeling what it feels like to be human and not what an algorithm is telling you to feel and not a doctored up picture of someone. Warts and all, here we are. And that is just, people walk away from those experiences better. And they go out and they take that energy else, it's contagious.

To me, that aspect of it has become as equal, as important as the music itself. I love the making of the music. I love recreating stuff around that song every night so that it doesn't happen the same way every time. I love all of that, but I also really love the dance with the audience. And I really love hearing about the relationships that form from being.

from coming to our shows for years. Like that to me is, I mean, I could cry talking about it. It's just, it blows my mind that people meet and fall in love at our shows or that our friends for 20 years now coming to like that kind of stuff. The good festivals like when, and I don't mean to disparage any festival, but those first few years of Bonnaroo were so special because they were just what you were talking about earlier, just dreaming.

And just like, didn't matter what the spreadsheet looked like. were like losing money, but God, it was the best festival. we just lost a, I want to give a shout out real fast to, Jonathan Mayers, just passed away a couple of days ago. He was a co-founder of, Bonnaroo and his, his imagination and playfulness and just overall joy for life was a giant part.

Speaker 1 (33:35.822)
of that festival and many others. And he kind of like set the tone for what it means in the two thousands for people to get together, like what we're talking about and celebrate humanity. you know, we all learned a lot from him. So I just, wanted to give a shout out to him and like, wish his spirit well on the next quest there. Yeah. I just, I agree with you. It's so important to go to shows, to go to

art openings to go just be with people, go to a park, organize a picnic or a friend group or, you know, like reach out to people that don't text them, call them. Like that human interaction is just so credibly important more now than ever. I mean, it's we have to be reminded that we're all not that damn bad and we're not this thing that's being painted of each other. And that, you know, maybe

You might have a political disagreement or maybe you don't practice the same religion, but you are still worthy of love receiving and giving. You want the same thing. You get your feelings hurt when somebody says something bad about you. You feel great when somebody pays you a compliment. All of these things are across the board, wherever you are, no matter what country, no matter it's human. And we just have to be reminded of that. You just nailed it. Like going to concerts.

getting in those moments, sharing those experiences, band and crowd together as one is one of the greatest feelings ever. And I can't believe we all still get to do this. It's just, what a blessing.

like it's kind of the dream, right? It's the dream for most musicians when you're starting out. That's the dream. And also acknowledging you all work really hard for it to work, And not every band has the same inner dynamic. And of course, no band has the same inner dynamic. I think there's a commitment, especially to the long-term bands, that you can just tell there's emotional growth that has happened.

Speaker 1 (35:23.758)
That's a lot of work.

Speaker 2 (35:39.182)
for being together because otherwise as you as you said like you can't it's not gonna work like people are just gonna freak out on each other or like addictions are gonna take over or XYZ like all kinds of stuff but I think when we talk about like the wonderful magic of things it's also important to recognize like yes there's there's also like oppression and there's also terrible shit and if we care about the one we got to care about the other

That is the absolute truth. There's no light without darkness and vice versa, you know? And yeah, I mean, we're just better together. That's the ultimate, and that's not a capitalistic way of looking. I'm a terrible capitalist. I always have felt very strange in this country. But I agree with you. I feel like society benefits when we all

And that's humanity.

Speaker 2 (36:18.05)
The opposite.

Speaker 1 (36:31.348)
succeed. And I really feel like, I mean, I try to do this in everything that every project I take on, like the goal is for everybody to walk away a winner. And that's, it's really not that hard. If you can just pluck the greed out of the thing. I mean, it's such an innate human, like survival tactic where you're just like, I've got to take care of, like, I've got to survive.

But at a certain point, how much do you really need? Go on vacation, live on the road out of a suitcase for a month. You'll find out real fast how much you actually need. I look at this house and I'm just like, Jesus Christ, I need to get rid of everything. Because I can survive off of a couple pairs of pants, five shirts, you know, like, and two people, no.

Our kids won't like that though.

They're like, no, no thanks, dad.

Yeah, totally. But I guess my point is that I don't need all this. I wish there was a way to communicate to all the powers that be and not just in America, but like in this increasing movement that like we're just better together. It's better for the whole thing. If everybody walks away a winner, being a winner looks different to different people, but oppression is so backwards and

Speaker 1 (37:55.626)
is the work of greed and cowardice, in my opinion. No one with confidence is like true confidence, not this bravado. 100%. No one walking around with true confidence and true love for themselves is gonna walk around keeping somebody else down. True leadership is side by side or from behind.

Yes, and we know that power corrupts the brain. yeah, like neurologically. And so my big question for myself lately is what do we do about that? Because you can't logic and reason with somebody. I don't even know if folks at a certain point are capable of love anymore. And so like what's the way to navigate the folks who have a whole lot of power? And I know we don't have to get we could stay in the ether on this.

if you know what I mean. What's the way forward? And I think part of it is just as you say, better together, strengthen numbers. People are starting to see what happens when we go, fuck no, no thank you, and come together and be like, okay, take us all, you know, to stop things. And this has been happening globally for.

what feels like a couple of years as a direct response to certain trends that were happening. And I feel very hopeful that the more we all realize how as you say better together we are and also like how much power we have if we can talk to each other and all agree at least this is bad. Let's come together to stop this and I think that art is really helpful and I don't mean this in the like art so like lovely.

I'm artistic. mean it like it's a fucking message and you and I talked about this before we gone on, you know, you just finished your first round of three legs of touring for is and I I do I know we're getting really close but like I want to ask a couple questions about is for sure. And I saw a video a video what do we call that stuff now like an electronic

Speaker 1 (39:54.456)
please.

Speaker 1 (39:59.758)
It's still video. still like I still like pick up my phone. I'm like I'm gonna videotape that like I Still haven't figured out where to put the tape in this thing. I don't know What's grandpa talking about over there? know

The kids are like, what's a video?

my God. Are you 50 yet? No. Okay. It's coming. I'm 51 now and I'm like, all right. This is interesting. But there's footage of you standing and talking to the crowd and basically saying like, we're coming together in the name of love. To love and to be loved together in this moment. That's right.

I'm 47.

Speaker 2 (40:43.488)
And that is such a powerful thing because you had the stage to be able to send that message out into the

world. Yeah, that's so that's an opening. You're referring to the opening toast that I do at our festival one big holiday. I I just like to set that precedent right then and there. I don't know. Yes. The whole idea is just like, look, we're all in here now and we're just going to focus inward for a little while. The stuff didn't go away in your normal lives, but we're leaving all that on the on the outside of that fence line right there.

All that is out and all we're going to focus on in here is each other. We're going to focus on ourselves too. We're going to try and heal this in here because until you work on this and get this right, none of this is right. So it's a moment. I just like to take that moment to, don't know, give people permission to just let loose and be vulnerable and put down their guards for a second and make a new friend and help a sister out and like really just celebrate humanity for a second.

And that's, that's all I, I mean, I don't say those exact words, but it's, it's my toast every year. And I, I don't drink anymore. so I do a little heart cheers, and it's, you know, it's just like a little moment to, everybody to just, it's before any of the music happens. And it's just like, this is, this is the vibe. This is why we're all here to do this. It's of course about the music, but

It's about so much more. And the more you put into this, the more you're going to get out of it and just leave all that other crap out there for now. Because honestly, if you leave it out there and come in here and work and take a break for a second, you're going to know how to deal with all that stuff better when you get out there.

Speaker 2 (42:37.288)
it remembering that we do like each other that we do like to hang out together yes that we do okay I don't agree with you on this but my god wasn't that amazing yes and then we can talk about it we see each other as people again instead of just like one side or the other side it's kind of like the pulling of the tarot card at the beginning it sets a tone right it like it it brings people together for a moment yeah

Such a good idea to do that at the top of the podcast. Because otherwise I would have just been sitting here like, I don't have anything to talk about.

podcast.

Speaker 2 (43:09.774)
Don't worry, I have like so many questions, but we're not going to get through them all today that's okay. You guys should have a tarot reader at one big holiday.

I think you just got a job.

You know, you know, would do it in a literal heartbeat. Okay. My life has been changed from my mingling with my morning jacket, which I think is what art is supposed to do. Right. And so like time waited came out. was just like, the piano came on. was like, this is really lovely. And then at some point that is record image came out. And I was like,

Love it.

Speaker 2 (43:51.438)
Am I seeing this right? We're all seeing this, right? And then the song title started coming, it's like everyday magic. And I'm like, my God, I think I'm right about this. And then I don't know what it was. Is it like some kind of sporting event that you all were like at? There's like some video, it was on Instagram, a purple silky cape or something with like a big My Morning Jacket logo.

that was our. Yeah, I made I helped make the we did a merch color. I do all the merch and you do are like I don't make it, but I. Tom has just now started helping me out with it, but for the last decade, I've been that's that's my world is like the whole design part. So I did a merch collaboration with our Louisville professional men's and women's soccer team. So that's what that was.

soccer team

Speaker 1 (44:47.362)
You saw that. That was the sporting event.

But I saw that and I was like, that's a fucking magic thing. This is magic. This album is a magic album. And so it's not unusual for your band to talk about spiritual things or talking. Like I think early days there's Jesus talk and then there's lots of talk of God and like grappling with sort of themes and all of that. But this one feels specifically, we're fucking going all in on the theme this time.

Am I, would I be correct on that? Like this, it's a seance.

That was so funny. For those of you listening or watching, Megan reached out to me over Instagram and she's just, what's up with this picture? And I forget what I sent back. A game of like slap hands or something like that. That's what we were recreating. I don't, so I'm hesitant to answer that because I don't, part of the beauty of this is that everybody takes away what they take away from it.

You

Speaker 1 (45:53.714)
And we are a deeply spiritual band, but in no defined, organized kind of way, just very in touch with our inner selves and with the surroundings around us and just trying to be good people. That's the main goal. And yeah, there was a lot of God talk in the earlier parts of the, I mean, Jim and I, we both met at a Catholic, like we met at a vacation.

Bible school like thing for our Catholic grade school. Like we're recovering Catholics. We're like that's that that did not work for me. It works for other people and that's great. But yeah, I think the a lot of the early stuff is him still like we're all still working through like what the what is God? What does it look like? What does that feel like? What what are people doing? Like what like is that?

That doesn't feel right. are it? Yeah, it's just a, it's, would say our band is a constant spiritual exploration of trying to figure out what it means to be human. And Jim is the lyricist. So you're hearing it from his lens or through his lens. but we're all kind of on the same journey in terms of just trying to figure it all out, you know, and not really like live in the confines of one way of thought, because at the end of the day, like that.

that takes an immense amount of hubris to walk the earth thinking that this is the way things are and that I'm not wrong. That is actually the sign of ignorance in my opinion is like any anybody worth their salt. Any, any smart person will be the first to admit that they don't know anything. It's kind of like somebody who's like truly strong. I mean, there are truly strong people that are like walking around, like flexing their muscle, but part of most people are just kind of like walking around and they, they don't need

Right.

Speaker 1 (47:47.416)
The smartest person in the room is not going to let you know that they're smart. That's just it. And I'm trying to tie this back to what I was saying. See? I'm clearly not.

You're really away from the seance. Yeah, I know is actually what it is. And that's fine. Did you know that Abraham Lincoln used to have seances? Yeah, he was a spiritualist. I know. I think you were. don't know. I'm not telling us the truth right now.

Did he really? Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (48:10.273)
that's super cool. I've never been a part of a seance.

Speaker 1 (48:20.366)
Yeah

Actually, you know what, in terms of like that... Right. What I also love about that image specifically is the like, because it's an animated GIF, like it's an animated picture, right? So if you go and you if you go to wherever you listen to your music, but if you go to where you listen to Apple music, that's my that's my one. But if you click on that picture.

We'll shoot seances.

Speaker 2 (48:47.402)
It's animated and so there's something happening, is I think and I might be wrong on this. It looks like like a wave like a waveform that's passing through everyone's hands, which ties it all together in terms of the interconnectedness of not just you as individual people, but you as a band and then even greater than that you as the people who are exposed to your music, whether it's

listening or whether it's in concert and it is that interconnectedness that being together that really creates the hopefulness of moving forward of being able to see our humanity of sharing the connections in all of the different ways that we can of going back to what you were talking about nerding it like the thing I call it is nerding out on your shit. Like what are you interested in and you go to a comic convention or you go to cooking classes or you or you

make cooking classes because I think I remember at some point you were doing cooking.

I did, yeah. I'm still working on that stuff. It's so much fun.

so much fun and you're really good at it. Like it's fun to watch you because you're good at it as a host and as a creator. okay, thinking of all of this and because we're using this podcast as ways of looking at different types of modalities of spirituality, taking from it what works for you in order to stay hopeful. What would you say? And this is where we'll close out. What would you say is a way that

Speaker 2 (50:21.482)
we can interact with music purposefully to stay hopeful so that we can keep doing good things in the world.

Is that even a question? How about this? How can music help us stay hopeful?

Well, no, was thinking about it from a making of music standpoint and a listener of music standpoint. mean, honestly, I feel like you just have to remember that it's a human being making. If you can put into context that whether you're making the music or listening to it, that you are walking this earth with your circuitry and your makeup.

and you are receiving this information and what you do with that is up to you. And if you are walking this earth with hope in your heart and you're reminded that, there is a chance, because there's always a chance, I'm sorry, I never think in absolutes when it comes to that kind of stuff. There's no way that there's all dark or there's all light. There's tidal waves of both all the time and it's not 50-50 and it's insane.

I feel that that music can keep you hopeful because it reminds you of your humanity and the humanity of the of the people around you. And I just really feel that it all goes back to reminding ourselves that we are just people with all we all have the same wants and needs and we're all just trying to do our best and the people that aren't doing their best. Hopefully you can say something or model something just by being positive and being

Speaker 1 (52:06.488)
proactive and living a life of love and empathy and goodness that hopefully music plays a part in that. Hopefully art in general plays a part in that to remind you of your humanity and to communicate that to others that we're all here for the same reason. And that's to love and to make this place better. Leave it better than we found it. We're failing at that miserably, but I still have hope for that.

And I can't control what everybody else does, but I do my part in every little moment of my day. And that's all I could, I would hope that music plays a part in reminding people of their humanity. Because they have that one moment, then doing something good with their day, their hour, their minute is surmountable and isn't overwhelming and may lead to many other beautiful things.

I would say that's a pretty good answer.

It very long answer.

I really liked it. Patrick, I thank you so much for this conversation and for joining me today and for the excellent music and the incredible drum fills and the general goodness in your heart that is always such a pleasure to be around. And I sincerely appreciate the wholeness of you and especially you being here today.

Speaker 1 (53:30.123)
well thank you so much and the feeling is most certainly mutual

You can find all the information and takeaways from today's episode in the show notes or at embracing enchantment.com. Subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love for you to leave a review. You can also leave a voice note at embracing enchantment.com and we might feature it in a future episode. You can find out more about Patrick and my morning jacket and where to follow them in the show notes. I highly recommend getting is listening to it. Start to back.

And if you want to be like me, you can take your dog for a walk and do it in a field and just experience the magic from start to finish, which is the way I love to listen to a record. You're going to want to make sure you're subscribed because we have some exciting episodes coming up about whether evil spirits exist and how to work through an evangelical past and the magic of books. You can catch up on previous episodes where we talk with Pam Grossman, Colin Biddell, Cult Mother, about Tarot.

magic is activism, the question of whether magic is real, and so much more. Until then, here's to building an enchanted