Pam Grossman: Witch, Author, Magic Maker

Megan Hamilton (00:02.065)
I'm Megan Hamilton and this is the Embracing Enchantment podcast. I was introduced to the work of today's guest by my friend Marissa who told me about this incredible podcast that I would absolutely love. And boy was she right. I'm guessing this is around 2019 and I have enjoyed so many incredible conversations but have also learned so much about.

art within the world of witches, the history of witches through her incredible book, Waking the Witch, which we'll definitely talk about, and I felt such kinship and affinity while joining workshops she's created like witch pictures, feminine magic and transgression in Western art. Please, I am so excited, like beyond excited. Please welcome our very special guest, Pam Grossman.

Pam (00:54.294)
Yay! that was such a lovely intro. Thank you, Megan. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Megan Hamilton (01:01.063)
I, yes. Well, it is truly my pleasure. your work has been so instrumental, in my forward trajectory and I appreciate all that you've done and all of the things that you bring into the world. So it's truly a thrill to have you here. okay. So I'm going to pull a card as I usually do. Yes. And, it's a general card for all of us and sort of, well,

Pam (01:19.416)
Thank you.

Pam (01:24.014)
Thank

Megan Hamilton (01:30.56)
help to sort of maybe bring some themes to light. For those of you who are tuning in for the first time, my tarot reading style is generally uplifting and all towards the betterment of ourselves, even if tricky and sticky things come up as they want to do sometimes with tarot. Tarot's like, yeah, that thing, you actually are going to have to take a look at that. But while I'm shuffling,

Pam (01:50.498)
Thank you.

Megan Hamilton (01:58.526)
You had a really magical experience recently where you got to create and cast a love spell for Jinx Monsoon's Carnegie Hall show. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to what that experience felt like, because I read the spell and I got full body chills as I was reading it. And I even I hope it's OK. I borrowed and when I call because I call in circle and I borrowed some of your words and I like it was quite quite something. Yeah.

And and then I wonder so if you can speak to that experience and then also I really want to know about that dress.

Pam (02:35.438)
Well, the Carnegie Hall experience was so incredible. Jinx Monsoon, for listeners who might not know, she's one of the most incredible drag queens and performers on earth.

she's also become a Broadway star and just a real trailblazer in a lot of respects and much to my delight. She has become a friend of mine and she's been on the podcast a few times. I've been on her podcast and you know, we've gotten to know each other outside our respect their shows too. She's just, such an inspiration to me. And so when she invited me to participate in the show, I have to admit it first, I was, mean, I was so honored, but I was also like,

Megan Hamilton (02:54.975)
Thank

Megan Hamilton (03:10.537)
fun.

Pam (03:22.136)
really overwhelmed and I had some anxiety around it and I believed that I was being called to do it for a reason. So like I would say my high frequency was like, can I curse on this show? I should have asked. Okay. I curse like a pirate. I was like, fuck yes. Like clearly spirit is calling me to, you know, express my magic and what an honor that Jinx is inviting me to be part of her big night.

Megan Hamilton (03:34.389)
yeah, please go for it. Yep.

Megan Hamilton (03:41.043)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (03:49.516)
But my low frequency ego shit was nervous. I mean, it's really, really high pressure. So I was really excited and a little bit scared. But I believed that it would work out, and I just had to push through my anxiety. And I find in those situations when I'm focusing more on spirit rather than myself and focusing on being of service to spirit and being

a channel for magic and trying to connect with the audience or with the world, then I can kind of get out of my own way. The path of bullshit and anxiety that sometimes comes up for me. And doing the show itself was unbelievable. Just being at Carnegie Hall was incredible. I had my own dressing room. It was really, really cool.

Megan Hamilton (04:43.517)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (04:45.208)
And it just so happened to be on my birthday, which is Valentine's Day.

Megan Hamilton (04:48.329)
my goodness. yeah, that's right. I know I've read that somewhere. How special. my goodness.

Pam (04:52.258)
So total stars aligning. And what happens to me in these situations is a lot of times the anticipation feels really intense. But once I'm doing it, just I click into another gear and doing it felt amazing. I felt very aligned and in tune with the folks that were there, with spirit, with jinx, and it all flowed and felt really powerful and honestly really healing because

I mean, I don't have to go through and excuse the firetruck, New York City, baby. I don't have to go through all the, all the harshness that is happening in the country right now. But I will just highlight that, you know, Jenks is, you know, she's queer, she's transgender, her audience is very queer. And to be up there the same week that the president announced that he wanted to ban drag shows.

Megan Hamilton (05:25.789)
Yeah, that's good.

Megan Hamilton (05:51.433)
Huh?

Pam (05:52.076)
this anti-trans conversation is really coming to the fore. So to be able to offer some magic that very week and some healing to that community also felt like a real gift and a real honor, something I was able to transfer and it felt like the right moment for it. So yeah, one of the great honors of my life.

Megan Hamilton (06:17.671)
Yeah, like the divine timing is quite, I don't know if you're feeling it lately, but I'm just, know, so yes, divine timing, of course, like you couldn't have planned that better. No, I mean, you could have if the underlying stuff wasn't happening, obviously, but if it is going to happen to sort of have these moments of, yeah.

Pam (06:43.328)
Mm-hmm, exactly.

Megan Hamilton (06:45.445)
I'm going to be in this gigantic room with so many people aware of what's happening and be able to give a really strong message. And it speaks a little bit to, you know, one of the things that I've been noticing lately, and maybe you'll feel this as well, is I I have had this strong sense that everything's going to work out. And also, and not like a Pollyanna like, you know, but

But, know, and many people that I've talked to have had that sense as well. And it's not a rational sense. It's not, you know, it's just like, and I keep, I have these moments where I go, okay, well, this doesn't really feel like it is going to work out. Like, so for example, when Biden stepped down and Kamala Harris stepped in and it was that moment of hope and you're like, okay, this might be the miracle that we've sort of been waiting for. And then things happen the way they did.

Pam (07:23.598)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (07:45.504)
but then things keep happening the way they do and they look like they're going to be terrible, but then in sort of strange ways, they're actually changing the trajectory and giving opportunities for, you know, enlightenment and bringing things to the surface. Have you noticed that as well, just in your daily going about?

Pam (08:06.272)
Yeah, I mean, I would agree. I have that same intuition, but it's tempered by the very serious repercussions that real people that I actually know and many whom I don't know, you know, are experiencing and suffering from right now. So and I know you're not saying that there isn't suffering and pain and fear and all of the crappy things that are happening.

Megan Hamilton (08:19.561)
Yes. Yes.

Megan Hamilton (08:34.911)
Hmm.

Pam (08:36.458)
And at the same time, I do believe that we're going through a period of awakening and that more and more people seem to be engaged and seem to be saying no to this path that it feels like this administration is trying to set us on. So I'm also very hopeful. And I also know that we are co-creators of the world and more and more people are understanding that too, that

Megan Hamilton (09:02.431)
Huh.

Pam (09:06.104)
You can't just hope and be passive. You have to actively take steps to build the world you want to live in. And so as much as I believe in the immaterial part of magical practice, the material part, know, the showing up and the phone calls and checking on your people and all of that is, is crucial. And it seems like more and more people are starting to grasp that too.

Megan Hamilton (09:23.296)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Megan Hamilton (09:34.258)
Yes. And thank you. Thank you for bringing up the other part of, yes, people are suffering and it's not, you know, let's just magical thinking our way through this and ignore everything that's happening. The opposite, I think, and well, making sure that those who are suffering as much as we can lend our support, but also that sort of through line of hopefulness.

that things can change and that we do have more power than perhaps we've been led to believe for centuries maybe is what will sort of bring us through and carry us through. So thank you for the opportunity to sort of re-bring that up. And I just want to take a look at the cards now.

Pam (10:08.628)
Yes.

I know.

Pam (10:21.996)
Okay, and again, I have to tell you about the dress. I haven't forgotten. I'll just say quickly. The dress was made by Normandy Sherwood. She's an unbelievable, just theater maker. She's a director and a costume designer and a writer and all of this, artistic director. And we got to design it together and it was like the garment of my dreams. You know, it was a real Valentine witch.

Megan Hamilton (10:25.221)
yeah, please do!

Megan Hamilton (10:45.735)
It's unbelievable.

Pam (10:49.37)
There was lots of fringe and it sort of looked like a little bit of a nod to Cupid with some arrows and wings, kind of. And it has hearts with eyes in it, which is, I love eyes and hearts are of course for Valentine's Day and an image that I am attached to lots of stars and yeah, I just felt like a goddess in it. So I felt funky.

Megan Hamilton (11:02.943)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (11:10.939)
I love it. And if you haven't seen it, you need to go to Pam's. Is it on the Witchwave one or is it on your personal one?

Pam (11:21.046)
on Instagram. Yeah, I think it's on both. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (11:23.857)
Okay, okay. You have to go and see it because it is it's just you get a feeling just from looking at it. Okay, so I want to talk about the cards because they both fell out, which was interesting. And Pam and I are you okay if I bring this up? Okay, Pam and I had part. Pardon. I do and I I just want to reassure you so much. Okay, so

Pam (11:42.326)
Yes. You see my body tensing. You see my body getting tense.

Megan Hamilton (11:53.024)
Pam shared with me beforehand, because I was talking about how I was going to ask her about her new book, which we'll talk about in a second, as I was going to pull a card. Because those of you who have listened before know that I usually pull a card at the beginning to sort of set a tone and bring up some themes. And we talked about it a little bit. And so Pam brought up that she has some anxiety around pulling cards. that is that a fair thing to say?

Pam (12:19.79)
It was tarot or a little decks depending on the deck. You know, there are some I feel a lot more comfortable with tarot because it can be I mean, it can tell you what is what and there are some cards in there. I know there's no bad cards, but there's some cards there that when they show up, it's like fuck. really protect the energy around the book. And so, yeah, I kind of like didn't want to hear if you had some some

Megan Hamilton (12:36.031)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam (12:49.048)
pointy cards for me, but just around the book, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (12:53.435)
Okay. And so we'll be very clear that these cards are not about the book, like at all. what's. But it's interesting what fell out. And I will say that and I'll explain my very strong feelings and interpretation around this, because one of the cards that you said you didn't want did come out, not the tower.

Pam (12:59.95)
Unless they're amazing cards though. I trust you. I trust you.

Pam (13:23.724)
the three of swords.

Megan Hamilton (13:24.723)
the three, but here's what it is. So let me go back for a minute because I think we have to take the cards in the context of when they fell out. I wonder, you take this for whatever you will. Maybe this is a helpful journey for you. So the first one that fell out was the 10 of sorts. But listen, this is when you were talking about, are you okay if we continue? Yeah, okay.

Pam (13:38.337)
Okay.

Pam (13:52.526)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (13:54.058)
This is when you were talking about getting on the stage and this was getting over a fear, right? So with swords, often we can think of them, there's lots of different ways we can think of them, but one of them is fear. And so you had to go through these levels of fears to get to 10 to the end so that you could get up there and leave that and know that you could do it.

Pam (13:57.63)
Interesting.

Pam (14:18.626)
Yep, love it, love it. Well, me also just embellish a little bit and say, even though I knew it was going to be all right, and I knew, like I really had a feeling like this is gonna probably go well, and I'm meant to do this, like I didn't have doubt about that. And yet,

Megan Hamilton (14:20.285)
Right?

Pam (14:39.816)
I had such trouble sleeping the days leading up to it. I felt a lot of anxiety. I was excited too. And I always say, if I can be 1 % more excited than I am nervous and just let the excitement lead, I'm good to go. But that doesn't mean the nervousness and the anxiety goes away. So that's interesting.

Megan Hamilton (14:57.663)
Mm hmm. No. Well, yes, exactly. Yeah. But I love that. I love that this one came up because not only is it a pointy card, but it's also showing that like there's there's reward on the other side of doing the thing. Right. I'm going through the fear.

Pam (15:16.674)
Yes. Ooh, 10 of swords.

Megan Hamilton (15:20.991)
This one came up. No, I'm not. I know. But listen, this is about having a courageous heart. Yes. What do we associate so many swords with? Knights, courage, bravery, charging forward. I mean, look, there's as many interpretations of the cards as there are people. And certainly there's like lots of, for example, I find it really challenging to read Rachel Pollock's

Pam (15:22.198)
Are you kidding me? Three swords? Come on now.

You think?

Megan Hamilton (15:50.879)
reversals because they feel a little bit like, like, come on, kid, let's get going or, know, but, more in a, in a challenging way. But with this one in particular, there's a couple of things we know about it. First of all, it's minor arcana. So it's not like, you know,

Pam (16:11.202)
Okay.

Megan Hamilton (16:13.887)
Second of all, we are experiencing a lot of pain and this came up as we were talking about the people that we know and love who are suffering because of all of the injustice. That is something that's happening, right? Like it's, this is showing us, yes, this is happening. There is pain, but also when we think about swords and what they've been used for protection, courage, like diving into the moment, holding your fear, but also in your heart. so,

You know, love is still the biggest image in this photo, in this depiction.

Pam (16:50.592)
And considering we were talking about me performing on Valentine's Day, wearing a dress with hearts all over it.

Megan Hamilton (16:54.643)
I know that was the other thing. It literally came, you were like saying hearts on the thing and I'm like, I'm like, okay. So.

Pam (17:02.222)
Yeah. The tarot, I don't know. I think the tarot can be really rude, but I appreciate your softening of the interpretation here and I accept it.

Megan Hamilton (17:17.757)
And it's honestly not me being Pollyanna. It's truly not me being, you know, like, let's bypass the absolute shit that's happening. is honestly that I believe for the way that I read the cards, they are meant to give you what you need to move forward and to like keep opening up and like embrace life and have a magical existence.

Pam (17:46.958)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (17:47.142)
So so I leave that with you and I hope I didn't add to your anxiety. Did I? I'm sorry.

Pam (17:56.973)
little.

It's just funny, it's like exactly the cards I didn't want, you know? But I'm sure there's a reason that they came up. And when you're doing these readings, I mean, are they for me? Is this for everyone listening?

Megan Hamilton (18:11.655)
It's, they're for universal. And so I think that was part of it, which was the courageous heart piece. I think it's a really strong message that we've all, that we're all going to embrace going forward. And it's, you know, it's, I see a lot of people speaking up in difficult times when that used to be very uncomfortable for them. I see a lot of people saying like, no.

or, you know, finally seeing something on their heart that's been difficult to say, because I think that's kind of the way forward in terms of making sure that we see what's happening, we acknowledge what's happening, and we're also hopeful that we have more power and that we can change it.

Pam (18:47.011)
Yeah.

Pam (18:59.33)
Yes.

And as I say in the spell, there's a line in the spell where I talk about how the root of the word courage is car, which is heart. And so that makes me think also of yeah, having a courageous heart, like you said, and the heart beating anyway, despite the barbs and the pain and you know, trusting that so. Okay, I like your I like your positivity. Thank you.

Megan Hamilton (19:11.327)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (19:25.553)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Okay, good. I was wondering if maybe those came up as a way of like helping to alleviate some of your fears around some of the cards that might come up, but that time will tell. So I wonder then because you have this new book called Magic Maker and I'm so excited for it because I absolutely love Waking the Witch.

Can you talk a little bit about the book? Tell us a little bit about it. When's it coming out? All of that stuff.

Pam (20:03.214)
So the full name is Magic Maker, the Enchanted Path to Creativity. And yes, so really the book is a celebration of the ways in which magic and creativity are overlapping, if not one and the same thing. And so it explores that concept through a lot of examples from

Megan Hamilton (20:08.822)
that's interesting.

Megan Hamilton (20:21.785)
huh.

Pam (20:28.96)
certainly my life, but also lots of artists and thinkers and makers throughout history and the ways in which they have used magical techniques to generate their incredible work. you know, folks like Bowie and Beyonce and, you know, who else is in there? Paul McCartney. I mean, the list is really long.

Megan Hamilton (20:39.615)
you

Megan Hamilton (20:46.259)
Pam (20:56.246)
And it really just highlights all of these different methods, whether it's divination or paying attention to your dreams or casting a magic circle, all these different techniques that creative folks have used over time that have helped them really tap into spirit and channel spirit into their work.

Megan Hamilton (21:16.67)
Hmm.

my God, like the best that is so, cool. And also so alchemizing. It feels like for right now, you know, I think immediately of the book Big Magic, you know, which is such a wonderful book about creativity and the idea that, you know, and I love that. And it's Elizabeth Gilbert, by the way, that she just dives right into.

Pam (21:21.326)
I'm

Megan Hamilton (21:48.262)
I believe that creative thoughts are their own entities that live outside of us and choose us and we either go ahead with them or they move on to somebody else. I mean, I love the idea that we're just going to absolutely embrace the way that we view how we create things and this, as you say, co-creation with spirit and that there is something because I've I've thought that before, too, when you're practicing just

What's the difference between this and creativity? Truly.

Pam (22:21.326)
Yeah, yeah. And it's really liberating when you realize that creativity is not just something that comes from your own ego. And in fact, your own ego can get in the way. Not to say that I think we need to obliterate our ego, our ego is important. Our ego is the thing that even probably gives us a desire to make things and want to be seen to some extent. But I find

Megan Hamilton (22:25.631)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (22:31.539)
Yes.

Yes.

Pam (22:51.234)
that as with the Carnegie Hall spell, when I'm able to say, this isn't just about me and what people are gonna think about my work or how I look or how I sound or what I wrote, I am actually here, as I believe we all are, to help the immaterial creation and creative force to become embodied and materialized here on earth. And...

Megan Hamilton (22:58.111)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (23:17.579)
huh.

Pam (23:19.114)
when you see creativity as a collaboration, it's easier to get out of your own way because you're like, it's not just about me. For some reason, I was chosen to bring this project through or these ideas through, this song through, and it really helps you surrender to that process and trust it.

Megan Hamilton (23:40.224)
I love that word surrender. And yeah, I mean, you can take that principle into activism as well, right? This is not just about me. It's not just about me feeling uncomfortable bringing this up or saying this thing. This is about somebody else going back to what we talked about before suffering. And it's more important that I get over this discomfort I have and and and bring that forward. Yeah, I really love that. And even spirituality in general.

the idea that it's about something bigger than just this one entity that's sitting here in the office, you know, coming up with ideas and, yeah, I, yeah, I really love that. I did want to point out, speaking of creativity, if you see this little beaded picture here, so I think I bought that within 10 minutes of listening to the Tessa.

Pam (24:20.556)
Yeah, yeah.

Pam (24:31.778)
Yowls.

Megan Hamilton (24:38.535)
purloo episode. my goodness. Yeah. Yeah.

Pam (24:39.936)
Isn't she incredible? I love her so much. have some of her work too. She's such a gifted talent. Yeah, creativity as magic.

Megan Hamilton (24:48.709)
I, it is.

Megan Hamilton (24:53.307)
Yes, and if you don't know who Tessa Perlu is, please go and listen to that episode of the Witch Wave. But if you've ever had a tarot reading with me and got the Page of Cups, it's one of the first things I like to point out, which is because I find that particular symbol so important of lightness and silliness because, you know, that fish comes back with the king who's very serious riding the waves. But then the fish is like, don't forget to stay light.

Pam (25:22.2)
Yes, yes, reverent reverence. I talk about that a lot on the podcast, you know, both having like a serious spiritual or magical practice, but also not taking shit too seriously. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (25:22.791)
Yeah. hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (25:35.624)
No, yes, exactly. Yeah, I have a question for you. This is is not one of the questions I had come up with. But when you're doing your personal practices, are you OK to speak to those? OK, so if you're calling in circle or if you're convening with your guides, do you ever find yourself being goofy with them?

Pam (25:50.391)
Yes.

Pam (26:03.852)
Sometimes they're certainly goofy with me. For sure. Yeah, I definitely find that spirit has a sense of humor. And, you know, you just have to laugh. I mean, a quick story. This is just a little anecdote that's popping into my head. I remember I was leading this group trip to Greece. This was now, you know, about a year and a half ago, and it was an unbelievable experience. But the first night

Megan Hamilton (26:06.793)
hahahaha

Megan Hamilton (26:11.807)
Hmm?

Pam (26:33.666)
that we were walking around. You know, we had gotten to know each other a little bit, but it's a group of strangers pretty much. And we're about to meet magic in all these amazing places, but we haven't quite unified yet. And all of these synchronicities started happening on our walk together. And the one I remember is that the Danzig song, Mother, started blasting. And because we were a group of witches, we were all like, my God, you know, it's capital Mother, it's the goddess.

And so Spirit shows up in funny ways. Spirit shows up through, know, danzig, like hard rock music, and you just have to be open to it and know that that's also it saying like, Hi, I'm here. But it's funny, right?

Megan Hamilton (27:17.247)
Yes. So funny. So funny. Yes. This is not the first time that Danzig has come up on the podcast.

Pam (27:26.402)
Get out of here! Wow, I rarely think about Danzig, so that's really, really funny.

Megan Hamilton (27:31.667)
I had Cult Mother on. Do you know Hannah Joy Graves? my goodness, you would love her. She's very into tarot, so maybe, so take your time or whatever, but she has a Danzig tattoo across her midriff. And that came up as we were talking about things. So I don't know, Danzig, everybody go make a playlist.

Pam (27:36.833)
I don't.

Pam (27:53.186)
And so funny. Why does Danzig want to be here in this magic circle? We'll have to do some interrogation.

Megan Hamilton (27:59.136)
Yeah, think it's the punk rock element. think it's the like, I'm not, I don't want to pay attention to the shoulds and the ways that the traditional ways that have been and the ways that keep everybody oppressive or oppressed. It's, know, let's, what are we going to do to get out of this? And punk rock is, you know, is such a huge fuck you to the system.

Pam (28:27.263)
us.

Megan Hamilton (28:27.313)
and continues to be and was always really misinterpreted in mainstream media in terms of like satanic and, you know, and well, and perhaps, you know, there were lots of people into satanic practices, but also, you know, it's arguable whether that's a bad thing. And, right. I mean, there's lots of anyway, whatever. I'm thinking back to high school. Yeah.

Pam (28:35.446)
Good work.

Pam (28:50.222)
There's a lot to say on that, but that way you can diverge us a bit. I love making playlists, and that's actually one of my favorite ways to prepare for ritual or to get in the zone. And sometimes I put on typical, know, witchy music, but a lot of times it is like, I mean, like a Danzig, for example. There's a, I know I keep bringing up Bjork. She is one of my matron saints.

Megan Hamilton (29:16.313)
Ugh. Mm-hmm.

Pam (29:18.594)
There's a song by her called Pluto and it's one of her like hardest songs. It just like goes really, really hard, like club banger, intense, almost industrial song. And the lyrics to it are something like, I'm gonna mess it up now because I'm on the spot, but something like, excuse me while I explode, I have to explode this body off me and I'm a little bit tired, but brand new.

Megan Hamilton (29:21.182)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (29:28.159)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (29:41.095)
Yeah.

Pam (29:44.63)
And it's just such a song about shedding your skin and bursting out of the chrysalis and evolving into something new. And it's really throbbing and intense. And to me, it's one of the most magical alchemical songs there is.

Megan Hamilton (29:59.04)
Mm-hmm. All right, then we're going to make some new playlists with Bjork and Danzig because they they want to come through right now, clearly. Can we talk a little bit for those who are beginning to get interested in spirituality, tarot, witchcraft? And this is, know, this is just a like a low lob. Just kidding. What does being a witch mean to you?

Pam (30:02.988)
Yes.

I'm also a little bit of a cow phone.

Megan Hamilton (30:25.791)
And how did you start your journey toward this incredible body of work that you've created?

Pam (30:30.986)
my goodness. So I'm getting tense again. And it's not because you're asking me anything wrong. It's just, it's the question that of course people want to ask me. And it's, I have so much to say about it that I get overwhelmed. And I'm like, that's why I had to write a whole book about it.

Megan Hamilton (30:45.375)
Yeah, well, I know. First of all, read the book.

Pam (30:49.866)
It's not a bad question, it's my own. I think I have that reaction because I care so much about this topic. And it's so hard to like sum it up in a little sound bite. even though I have been talking about this, Waking the Witch came out in 2019, and I've been talking about being a witch for a lot longer than that, you would think I would have this beautiful answer that just tumbles from my tongue. Today I'll just trust the words that come.

And what's coming to me now is that being a witch and claiming that for myself has helped me to claim my power and to claim the fact that I am divine. And while people of any gender can be witches and are witches, it's definitely an archetype that's associated with the feminine.

and the discarded parts of the feminine or the parts of the feminine that are considered threatening by those who would prefer that feminine power remains dormant or silenced or oppressed. so calling myself a witch has been real act of stepping into my own agency and complexity. How's that?

Megan Hamilton (32:01.257)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (32:14.313)
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And you're right. mean, I think what's interesting about what you said is, you know, you wanting to have this sort of succinct answer. And that to me also is something that we might just have to get rid of going forward. Like it's not, you know, you're not a product. This is not a marketing moment. This is, you know, your life. And so

having maybe you never will have a quick haiku type of an answer for that. And that's important because it allows for questions. It allows for more opportunity for conversation for other people to lean in and say, I'm really interested about that. Could you tell me a little bit more? Like tell me about high school or tell me and certainly, you definitely get into that in the book in the Waking the Witch book.

Pam (33:13.166)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (33:14.557)
But I, you know, I very much value the idea that owning the title of which is transformational and and and definitely step along the path of agency. Not everybody has to call themselves a witch, certainly. But even, you know, the fact that we can. And actually, this is a great tie in. I'm going to read a passage from the book if that's OK with you.

Pam (33:43.566)
That would be lovely. Thank you.

Megan Hamilton (33:44.318)
Yeah. And I remember when I had it, like I was lying on the couch with my pencil and like, it's just annotated all the way through. But this part has always really stuck out for me and it, it'll lead into another question. But the very fact that so many of us can now joyfully speak the witch's name aloud is a glorious thing.

But we must remember the many thousands of people who have had their lives threatened or taken in her name as well. And this continues around the world to this day. To call oneself a witch with pride, whether ironically or with full-throated sincerity, is a marker of great privilege. Though it's never an entirely safe thing to do, those of us who use this moniker in public are very fortunate to feel able to take the risk.

and

It reminds me of the episode you did with Saran Jones. Which I just, mean, I love, love her. And it was just, I was so excited to listen. Like I think it was one of those ones you have to save to like, so that you'll be uninterrupted and listen all the way through. Because you also got to work together and there's so much fun.

Pam (34:50.552)
Yes!

Megan Hamilton (35:09.561)
fun around that and and please go and listen to that episode but one of the things that came up that I think is incredibly important was that during the times of persecution and again there is still persecution there are places around the world where it is definitely not safe to call yourself a witch and and perhaps people don't but they there are witch hunts right yeah yes

Pam (35:29.982)
I mean, in this country, in this country, you know, in some very religious, you know, conservative contexts, absolutely.

Megan Hamilton (35:40.648)
Yes, absolutely. And probably even more so in the coming months. I know. But when we think of, let's say, the witch hunts in Scotland or the witch trials of Salem, as you brought up in that episode, and this is so important, those people did not call themselves witches.

Pam (35:45.975)
Yes.

Pam (36:06.766)
Correct.

Megan Hamilton (36:07.827)
And I wonder if you can, because some people, this might be a new concept to folks, because we've seen the t-shirts, like, we are the daughters of the witches you couldn't burn, we've seen, and, well, that is like, that is so powerful.

those folks did not call themselves witches. Yeah.

Pam (36:23.296)
Right, it's historically inaccurate. That's doesn't mean that they weren't perhaps practicing some form of folk magic as many people do. And in probably all of our ancestral lines, if we go back far enough, there's folk magic and nature magic and all of this stuff. But to be clear, those who were accused of being witches and

you know, those who were killed for being witches would never have called themselves witches. This very much was a word that other people, it's a negative epithet, other people call.

anyone that who is deemed a threat, who's an outsider. know, most of the people who were accused of being witches were women. There were certainly men as well. There were animals, you know? And this was for a lot of different reasons, but there is this kind of retelling of the story of witch trials that,

Megan Hamilton (37:20.381)
Yeah, yeah.

Pam (37:34.094)
These were magical women and the magic was such a threat to the church and that's why the church wanted to snuff out that flame. And it's like, no, no, it's not that simple. A lot of the people who were accused and tortured and killed were older women. Some of them.

poor, some of them were mentally ill, some of them were rich, but they were widows and had land that other people wanted. You know, there's many, many reasons. Anyone unlikable, anyone who was scapegoated. So it's a word of persecution. And it's only been really in the 19th century with the rise of the first wave of feminism with the suffragists and particularly thanks to one.

Megan Hamilton (38:02.717)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (38:25.25)
who is named Matilda Jocelyn Gage. And we can maybe talk more about her later, but it's only been since then that the idea of being a witch was even aspirational. For many centuries, being a witch or being called a witch would have been an insult or a death knell.

Megan Hamilton (38:37.522)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (38:49.375)
Yes. And so, you know, going back to and thank you. Thank you for helping other people understand that going back to that passage from your it's the epilogue, think, right. The afterward or the afterward. No, no, I'm a songwriter and somebody asked me to play a song recently and I was like, I don't know that song and they're like, it's from this album. And I'm like,

Pam (39:05.015)
I would know, but I wrote that book a long time ago.

Pam (39:15.086)
It's shorter. Yeah, brains are... Brains are wild little machines, aren't they?

Megan Hamilton (39:19.465)
yeah, that one. I'm like, I don't remember it. Sorry. Yes. But the idea of of calling yourself a witch and reclaiming that and another amazing episode with Phyllis Curot, right, who, for those of you who don't know, is a lawyer who fought for the right to to have.

Wicca recognized as a religion and protected like other religions.

Pam (39:56.674)
Yep, that's right. She's an amazing witch, an amazing lawyer. She is an incredible author. Her book, Book of Shadows, came across my path at a really pivotal time. Actually, the same weekend that I got my first ever professional tarot reading by Rachel Pollock, I was reading Book of Shadows.

Megan Hamilton (40:08.425)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (40:18.779)
That's one of my questions too. Yep.

That's bananas.

Pam (40:25.024)
It was a really transformational, you know, it's a little, a little trip that my husband and I took upstate. this was, gosh, how many years ago? A long, long, long time ago. kind of around my Saturn return. but, but Phyllis is just an unbelievable champion of modern.

Megan Hamilton (40:41.503)
you

Pam (40:51.054)
witches. She is very instrumental in something called the Parliament of World Religions, which she invited me and several other witches to speak at a couple years ago. And she's really committed to making sure that anyone who is pagan, Wiccan, Druid, know, whatever is under that umbrella of being a modern nature worshipping magic maker, we'll say, she really wants to make sure that that we're given equal protection and equal rights.

Megan Hamilton (41:09.246)
Right.

Megan Hamilton (41:21.567)
Amazing, so incredible. so, you know, by that, on that note, you know, calling yourself a witch is an act of resistance and also is a like a high five to the work that Phyllis has done and that all people have done in order to just be themselves and practice in the way that they want to practice.

Pam (41:48.27)
That's right.

Megan Hamilton (41:51.006)
And speaking of that, you know, going back to your very first tarot reading, which, you know, this is going to blow minds. But you had your very first tarot reading with Rachel Pollock, which is bonkers. I mean, in the canon of of work with within tarot, especially in our modern times and

putting a completely different twist on how we looked at it, carving the way forward for people, you know, who are, you know, really modern like Jessica Doerr, who was on your podcast as well, who was transformational for me in terms of how I started to read Tarot as well. She's just, yes, yes, agree, hard agree. Can you speak to, are you okay? Is it okay? Are you okay to talk about?

Pam (42:35.938)
She's wonderful.

Megan Hamilton (42:47.603)
I'm not teasing you by the way, I'm legit asking, like, are you okay to talk about that experience? Yeah.

Pam (42:51.246)
Yeah, but here's the bummer of it is I cannot find, because I took notes and I can't find those notes. And I'm hoping that they'll show up because the actual reading was, went out of my head. I mean, I am certain that it was something telling me like you're on the right path. And, you know, it was very affirmational.

Megan Hamilton (43:02.855)
Interesting.

Megan Hamilton (43:09.171)
Yeah, right.

Megan Hamilton (43:16.223)
you

Pam (43:21.46)
And absolutely was what I needed to hear at the time. Like I remember the feeling of the reading was really positive and very encouraging of the path that I was on and where I was headed. But the specifics are lost to me other than the experience of what it was like to like be in her house and be with her. And she was reading from a deck that she had created. Yeah, so beautiful. This is

Megan Hamilton (43:46.191)
her decks are so incredible. Yeah.

Pam (43:50.754)
the, at the time it was called, think, the Shining Woman deck, and she renamed it the Shining Tribe deck to be more expansive. And of course her home was just stuffed with goddesses and she made jewelry and, you know, there, was just like a treasure trove of a little palace. And Rachel's someone who, you know, since then I got to

Megan Hamilton (43:54.334)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (44:20.642)
talk to and work with just a handful of times. We have some mutual friends in common. She came and spoke at the Occult Humanities Conference, which is a conference I co-organize with my dear friend, Jessie Bransford, every other year at NYU. And I got to interview her on my podcast, and it's one of my favorite interviews. And as listeners may know, she sadly passed away recently.

Megan Hamilton (44:40.989)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (44:50.444)
I just feel so grateful that our paths crossed in the material world while she was still on this side of the veil.

Megan Hamilton (44:58.843)
Yes.

Did you have a sense? Did you know who she was when you went there?

Pam (45:09.76)
I did, but it was a synchronicity that caused me to get the reading. So I had Tarot decks, I had read for myself, but I just felt ready to have, you know, that there were a lot of things going on in my life that were like level up moments. And I just had this sense on that trip with a lot of different synchronicities that like, there's a portal opening. And I'm a big...

Megan Hamilton (45:12.607)
you

Pam (45:38.114)
Vertigo Comics person, and for listeners who don't know, that's, you I grew up on Sandman Comics. And while I won't comment on the author of those comics, the next thing that's going on with that, you know, that as a text continues to be one of the most formative texts of my life. And Rachel was very involved in Vertigo Comics. She also wrote comics. She...

Megan Hamilton (45:46.495)
Yep.

Pam (46:06.638)
arguably invented the first transgender superhero. And, you know, I always say she was a transgender superhero herself in real life. so she had a deck that she did with the author of Sandman and some other Vertigo creators called the Vertigo Tarot. And so I had this, I still have this Tarot and it was basically like a deck.

Megan Hamilton (46:10.345)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (46:15.465)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (46:36.898)
that all the cards were different characters from different Vertigo comics, including Sandman. And she wrote the book on it and she advised on it. So that was the first time I had ever encountered her name. So when I was on this trip upstate with my then boyfriend, now husband, I was flipping through a magazine, a local magazine, and I saw a little ad.

just like, you know, in the back of the magazine, just like, Tarot reading is Rachel Pollack. I was like, wait a second, I know that name. And so I like call this phone number and I leave a message on her answering machine. And she, you know, called me back and we scheduled the appointment. And it was, it was incredible. And it felt like another synchronicity that this person whose name I had only known through the world of comics and Tarot was real and PS was like 15 minutes away from where we were staying.

Megan Hamilton (47:04.315)
my goodness. Imagine.

Megan Hamilton (47:32.583)
Yeah, that 100 % feels like divine intervention. Like that was definitely meant to be how magical and how like, absolutely formative, you know, to have that be part of your processes of coming up is just so like, it's, it's the best.

And here's my next question, you know back to Jinx Monsoon and drag queens and trans folks in general one of the things that you speak to often Is that all folks are included in witchcraft? Including trans folks which you know, we won't get too far into that but not everybody unfortunately feels the same way and as we enter unprecedented times what are some of the practices within spell work and

Witchcraft that we can do to help elevate our trans friends and make sure that they're protected I mean aside from you know as we spoke to earlier the action involved right the getting out there the making the phone calls the Literal like you know bodies of protection around people Can you speak to some of the ways that you might use magic to help elevate these? material actions

Pam (48:56.846)
I mean, think that, you know, a number of answers are coming to my mind. The first is, of course, just being really mindful of the language that we use. I still think it's fine to use words like goddess and god, and there are certain deities who are goddesses and gods, and that is absolutely fine. But I don't believe in,

Megan Hamilton (49:04.735)
Mm-hmm.

Pam (49:21.1)
that the divine feminine comes from the uterus. I don't believe that it, gender essentialism is something that I think people do without realizing it, where they just assume that our biology is tied to our, how we conceive of these different energies. And in fact, I do believe there is sacredness in our bodies and we should all feel welcome to honor our own bodies.

but I don't believe that feminine energy has to be in a female body. I think when seeing with masculine energy, and in fact, I believe that gender is a spectrum and energy is a spectrum. And so I've just been trying to be more mindful in my language. So for example, the spell that I cast at Carnegie,

Megan Hamilton (49:56.713)
Hmm, yeah.

Megan Hamilton (50:05.375)
Hmm.

Pam (50:16.746)
Yes, I use the word goddess, but I interchanged it with great spirit. I in the spell, I think I call her like, I think I say great goddess of infinite names and myriad genders or myriad names and infinite genders, something like that. So yeah, just being really mindful about the language that we use is a simple way. Not simple, it doesn't come simply to everybody, but it's a clear way.

also think the most protective thing that we can do for any community is just to make sure that they are humanized and centered. And so it's not those people over there. Like these are my friends. These are my colleagues. And I know there's probably some people listening who maybe don't know any transgender people personally. They probably do. They just don't know it yet. But...

the more that I think we can center the humanity of all, you know, humans. That's how we protect people.

Megan Hamilton (51:27.549)
Yeah, And it reminds me of, know, you spoke to language. It reminds me of spelling and the magic of words.

Pam (51:42.274)
Yes. And I'll add of images. So there are a number of trans witches and also just, just maybe non-trans witches as well who are creating sigils of protection for the trans community. So, Ezra Rose is an incredible trans artist. I love their work so much. also

I don't know if they identify as a Jew witch, but their work is very much from that tradition and as my ancestry is. So I love Ezra's work. Laura Tempest-Zakroff, who I have had on the show, she creates sigils and I believe she has made some specifically for the trans community and certainly for the queer community overall. those two are coming to mind.

But I know many, many others in that space are doing that magic. And so I would say, you know, if you are not trans yourself or queer yourself, follow trans witches and queer witches, because they're going to be doing the most powerful protective magic for their community that's out there.

Megan Hamilton (52:44.831)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (52:52.655)
Yes. Can you for those people who might not know what a sigil is, could you tell us what a sigil is?

Pam (53:00.246)
Yeah, a sigil is a charged image or symbol. There are many ways to craft it. One of the more traditional ways is to take an intentional word or phrase and then distill it down to its consonants. And only it's like the first time the consonant appears. So if there's like two S's, you only need the one S. So you distill it down to the single consonants.

And then you create an image out of those consonants that is more abstract. You you can't necessarily see the letters and then you charge that image through spell work, through, you know, some people do it through orgasm. Some people do it through dance. Some people do it through anointing it with oil or burning it. There are many different ways that you can, you know, kind of charge and activate the sigil.

and so yeah, some people do it with phrases and other people simply do it with beautiful imagery, but, it's, it's a really powerful method and you can draw it. You can carve it into a candle. Some people have sigil tattoos, you know, and it's a, it's a beautiful artistic method of casting a spell.

Megan Hamilton (54:14.279)
Hmm. Yes. yeah. I, I, yes, I love I don't do it very often, but I the few times that I've sat down sort of to intentionally create a sigil, you just sort of feel the something happening as you're doing it. Right. Like you're as you know, we talked about earlier, convening with everything that's outside of this material body.

Okay, so I've just I've enjoyed talking to you so much and I probably could talk to you for hours more but but I'm very grateful for the time that I have with you and as we close out I'm wondering what are some of the ways going forward that we can keep creating community and care through our spiritual practices in our own cities and towns. So I mean, you know,

I think that you work with a coven and there's lots of workshops that you do for folks who are not, mean, the internet's great for stuff like this, but if you are wanting to gather in your community and you don't know where to begin, what would be something that you could do?

Pam (55:27.564)
Yeah. I mean, as you said, like doing any kind of covening or convening digitally is becoming much more widely utilized. So I have a Patreon, which is, I think it's patreon.com slash which wave I should know that shouldn't I, which is, you know, my community wearing.

Megan Hamilton (55:52.465)
it in the show notes.

Pam (55:54.094)
and sign up and I do monthly rituals for all the members. And then there are some other ways that they can connect to each other. But I'm one of many, many, many people who have online covens. And a lot of, there are a lot of teachers now. And of course, there's varying degrees of quality there. if you do your research and you find a teacher of witchcraft often,

Megan Hamilton (56:17.759)
You

Pam (56:24.354)
their classes become study groups or become covens or online communities. So that's another way. I always recommend go to your local witch shop. There probably is one, even if it doesn't call itself a witch shop, it might be a crystal shop or a healing shop. It might have a moon circle. There's a lot of different, not euphemisms, but know.

Sometimes people aren't overtly witchy witchy and yet you're like, wait, you meet every month on the full moon? So yeah, go to your local alternative healing shop, witch shop, occult book shop, and just don't be shy. Just ask like, hey, is there a reading group, a study group, are there workshops? Is there a circle? Can, you know, I join a full moon?

Megan Hamilton (56:57.469)
Yeah, weird.

Pam (57:19.784)
evening or you know a sabbat. Is there a celebration for the pagan wheel of the year? There are witchcraft conferences. There are witchcraft festivals. So just a little bit of googling and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you find.

Megan Hamilton (57:37.499)
it. Pam Grossman, it has been an absolute delight to talk to you and thank you so much for your incredible body of work. I'm so excited about your book. How do we get your book? Is it on pre-order?

Pam (57:55.072)
Yes, it is on pre-order. I haven't officially announced it because we're still waiting for the cover. And so I'm told like wait until the cover and then tell everyone. But actually it's already available for pre-order. It's called Magic Maker. It comes out on October 14th. Pre-orders make such a huge difference though. yeah, if you are inclined to order it now and you see that it doesn't have the cover image, the cover is coming. But if you pre-order it now, it will arrive.

Megan Hamilton (58:13.619)
Hmm?

Pam (58:24.878)
And I always like to encourage people to order through bookshop.org or their local shop. But of course you can get it all the ways.

Megan Hamilton (58:35.407)
love it. Thank you so much for being here today and we'll be sure to go and pre-order the book because as we've talked about many times before in this podcast that is such an incredible way to support people. Make sure that you're subscribed to the Witchwave. It is, you know, how many episodes are you in? 150?

Pam (58:57.966)
We're coming up on 150, yeah. Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (59:00.991)
What up? And that you started it in 2017. Oh my goodness.

Pam (59:04.056)
That's right, that's right. And they're long juicy episodes, so they're still bi-weekly. And we take summers off so I can recharge a little bit. And if you want to hear from me every week, I do bonus episodes and mini-sodes via Patreon. I also have a YouTube channel where we're starting to put up the video portion of the interviews, and that's at Phantasmafile, as is my Instagram.

Megan Hamilton (59:08.233)
They're juicy. Yep.

Pam (59:32.514)
And then you can find the Witchwave Instagram at Witchwavepod as well.

Megan Hamilton (59:37.223)
I it. And I will be sure to link to all of these wonderful areas of the internet that you can find Pam and her work. And you can find all of the information and takeaways from today's episode in the show notes or at embracing enchantment dot com. Subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love for you to leave a review.

You could also leave a voice note at embracing enchantment dot com and we might feature it in a future episode. I love getting the voice notes. Yeah, it's so fun. It's so nice. You can find out more about Pam Grossman and where to follow her in the show notes. And I'll put lots of links. You're going to want to make sure you're subscribed because we have some exciting episodes coming up about.

Pam (01:00:09.806)
I do too, isn't it the best?

Megan Hamilton (01:00:23.987)
mediumship and scrying. And you can catch up on previous episodes where we talk about mundane magic, human design, tarot, astrology, and so much more. Until then, here's to building an enchanted life. Thank you so much, Pam.

Pam (01:00:42.818)
Thank you, Megan. This was such a pleasure.

Megan Hamilton (01:00:45.213)
Yay!