Medium Lady Reads: The Magic of Books

Megan Hamilton (00:01)
I'm Megan Hamilton and this is the Embracing Enchantment Podcast. So I have a confession to make. Computers and phones took the place of books for me for many years. I would try to pick up a book and would get bored immediately and go back to scrolling on my phone. When I went back to school when my child was two, I took a children's literature course and it was surprisingly and incredibly difficult.

just to focus. This was even more frustrating to me as I'd worked in bookstores for years. So when one of today's guests became my client, I realized how much I was missing out by not rewiring my brain back to reading. Her love of books and of libraries reminded me of how much I had loved books. So I put in a concerted effort to take reading back from the depths of brain rot.

And it was through her and her both of their podcasts that I met our second guest, also a lover of reading. I soon learned that she had another podcast where she talked about burnout recovery and gratitude. And all the while, the two of them would give book recommendations, share the reviews and their TBRs and generally bring forward the gift of reading and the magic of books. Please welcome our guests today, Jillian and Erin of Medium.

Lady Reads. Hello you both!

Erin Vandeven (01:33)
Hello? ⁓

Jillian O'Keefe (01:33)
Hello?

Megan Hamilton (01:35)
Thank you for joining me today on your, we're recording this on a Saturday morning.

Jillian O'Keefe (01:41)
So excited to be here.

Erin Vandeven (01:41)
you're welcome.

It's awesome. Great way to spend the weekend talking about books with friends.

Megan Hamilton (01:43)
Yay!

Really? Exactly. Like, you know, what is life if we're not doing fun stuff that we really, really enjoy? Okay. So Medium Lady Reads is a podcast about reading as self-care, a passionate love for the public library, and plenty of thoughts and opinions about book culture having its moment, which I love. I have had so many book recommendations from each of you at various times, whether you shared things with me

Erin Vandeven (01:49)
You

Megan Hamilton (02:18)
in DMs on Instagram or just through your own sharing of books that you're enjoying. So as is as is the way we do on this podcast, I'm going to pull a tarot card for us to get a tone, maybe look at some themes ⁓ and in the realm of literary devices, which Tarot tends to borrow a little bit. Heroes journey, ⁓ symbolism, stuff like that.

Erin Vandeven (02:43)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (02:46)
As I'm shuffling, I wonder if you two can share your origin story.

Erin Vandeven (02:53)
Ooh, Jillian, do want to go first?

Jillian O'Keefe (02:55)
Sure. ⁓ So I was a lover of books way back when I was in grade school and loved Babysitter's Club. ⁓ I know it was the best. remember sitting in one of my parents' lawn chairs and putting myself under a bush. So it was like a tall bush and it was nice and shady and I would sit there and read for hours and

Megan Hamilton (03:06)
Yeah, who didn't?

Erin Vandeven (03:07)
You

Jillian O'Keefe (03:22)
My mom wouldn't want us in the house, so we'd go and we'd read outside and it was just, it was the best. And then I have to say, even though I read a ton of babysitter's club books, my book that made me a reader for real was A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. And it was such a good book that it stuck with me. It still stuck with me and it just, hasn't gone away.

You know, it's the love of reading is there, even though there was a span of time when I wasn't reading much. But ⁓ yeah, that's that's my origin story. Aaron, what about you?

Erin Vandeven (04:01)
Yeah, my origin as a reader started really, really young with a mom who was a reader and I would often see her tucked up with a book and really my, feel like I was, you know, born in the library, honestly. ⁓ I mean, I wish that'd be an amazing origin story, but I have very tactile memories, sense, taste, touch of my public library as a child.

which had a very small footprint and so made it extremely accessible to me and my young mind. And from a very early age, I was navigating that library by myself. It felt like my own, ⁓ my first taste of independence and choice and control, probably a little bit, to choose the books I wanted to read and to ⁓ really feel a huge sense of abundance whenever I reach for a book, whether it's...

within the pages of the story or just the sheer amount of books that exist and the sheer amount of books that I want to read on my TBR. so surrounding myself with books has always been a reminder that ⁓ I can experience a life that's wealthy and I can experience a life that I can choose to fill with the things that I love. And the first thing, my first true love has always been books. So.

And we have an episode that talks about our origin as readers and it's nice. It's a great question because it gets us to kind of reconnect to that conversation before talking about some of those first books that really helped you identify as a reader.

Megan Hamilton (05:33)
And for folks who are not necessarily as encultured in the book world as the both of you, ⁓ and I had to look this up one day, TBR means to be read. So that's your pile of books by the bed ⁓ or like, you know, on your library list that you're waiting to read, Mm-hmm. ⁓

Erin Vandeven (05:45)
Yes. Yes.

That's right. That's right.

Jillian O'Keefe (05:55)
Yeah,

yeah.

Erin Vandeven (05:56)
Yeah. And I think that thanks for the call out because there are a couple of bookish short forms. ⁓ TBR is one of them, which is your to be read pile. Again, that's the kind of like greedy eyed monster of reading where you're not just happy to be reading the book you're reading right now, but you're also kind of eagerly anticipating the future and what future book might find you ⁓ in the future. So it's that kind of anticipatory.

Megan Hamilton (06:14)
You got like 10 on the go.

Erin Vandeven (06:24)
Hopefully that's joyful, some people feel burdened by their TBR.

Megan Hamilton (06:28)
like a stressful like, my gosh, how am gonna get through all of this? Or before the library, they have to bring them back.

Erin Vandeven (06:33)
sort of.

Yeah, or like an overcommitment to your future choices. think sometimes people can say like, ⁓ it's like living up to the potential of your future self. If you're not really making your way through the TBR pile. ⁓ Jillian and I talk a lot about this on the pod is there's books that speak to you and you're not able to read them right away. So you put those books on your TBR list, but then you get distracted. You get distracted by what everybody else is reading.

what's a new release, what feels like you might have like book FOMO or fear of missing out on like the latest, the latest release. And so you can be sometimes pulled away from that TBR, those books that really resonate with who you are, but you haven't picked them up for one reason or another.

Megan Hamilton (07:20)
And so would that make you I'm just going to go a little further on this. Would that make you put a certain book that you might be reading into your DNR so that you can catch up with the ⁓ with the other books that people are reading? Did you see what I did there?

Erin Vandeven (07:36)
⁓

I do. Jillian, do you want to take that?

Jillian O'Keefe (07:38)
haha

Yeah, I guess it would. ⁓ I tend personally, I tend to I'm very I read a lot of the current novels, you know, that are coming out or the ones that have just come out. And I tend to what Erin coined, and I think it makes the most sense is catch and release where we or I bring in the book home and then I if I'm not going to get to it or.

not going to read it right away or it's overdue. I don't want to keep someone else waiting if I'm not going to get to it immediately. So I'll return it. And that tends to be what I do. ⁓ I don't really have. I mean, I do have a TBR for sure, but I don't really have ⁓ like a stack of books on my nightstand that I'm going to wait to read. I'm more of a spur of the moment type reader.

Megan Hamilton (08:32)
interesting. I love that you both know your styles. you know, I mean, I think, you know, it probably helps that you talk about it a fair amount. Just to know, you know, you don't really know what you're like until you start talking about it. ⁓ And just for the folks who don't know, ⁓ DNR is did not read, right? Or is it DNF? Did not finish. Okay.

Erin Vandeven (08:36)
Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Keefe (08:40)
Yeah.

Erin Vandeven (08:40)
It helps. Yeah, it helps.

Mm hmm. Well, it could be both. could be both.

Jillian and I talk about on the podcast, the books that we're actively choosing to not read. So I might review a book and Jillian might say, ⁓ based on your review, actually, I was going to read that. But now I'm not going to read it. So it's on my do not read, which you coined as the DNR. There is also the DNF, which is a book that you pick up, you make your way through it. And for whatever reason, and all reasons are good reasons, you just say

I'm not going to finish this book. And that for a lot of people who are really passionate in the reading space is a place where you can have lot of discourse and controversy because some people are very avid about DNFing and a lot of people really struggle with it. It can be a place where your reading can get caught up in reading books you think you should read rather than reading books that you really want to be reading.

Megan Hamilton (09:46)
my God, I love, I love this dialogue around, ⁓ around reading and around books because, know, this podcast is about magic and spirituality. And I know within my bones and I'm sure you do too. And I mean, you know, we always think of, let's think of witches as having a book or a grimoire or, ⁓ you know, sharing knowledge. And I can think of so many, ⁓

Erin Vandeven (09:49)
You

Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (10:14)
witchy books that I've read. All of them have books and sort of like deal with books, but I'm getting ahead of myself. The card that fell out actually as you both were talking and I find this really interesting is the nine of pentacles. So pentacles ⁓ are in the realm of Earth. We associate them often with career and money. However, there's also an element of pentacles, which is

⁓ the magic of being a human. So humanity, aliveness, things we do, behaviors, you know, like maybe reading as being part of our identities or how we sort of, you know, like to frame ourselves. And so you've got this ⁓ woman, appears to be a woman. This is the Rider-Waite Smith deck. She's wearing

Erin Vandeven (10:56)
You

Megan Hamilton (11:10)
what we know to be sort of elegant clothing. So we can tell she's quite well to do. She's also surrounded by ⁓ grapes, which signify abundance. And so we were talking about the abundance that you can get feeling with books and having access to the library, which is sort of this never ending ability to keep going with what you're interested in. And she's also

holding a bird of prey of some kind. And we know that because the bird of prey has the little hood and she's wearing a protective glove. And what I love about this is she's just really feeling herself. She's very comfortable with who she is and what she likes. She also is connected to her wild side, but has made it safe for her. know how so thinking of our nervous systems, for example.

Erin Vandeven (11:52)
You

Megan Hamilton (12:06)
If your nervous system is overactive and feels kind of, you know, wild and comes at you all the time, you can feel on edge. And so if you consider this bird, possibly her nervous system, she has made it safe for herself. And I love the idea that you could also just imagine her crossing her legs and pulling out a book and having a little read in her bountiful.

Jillian O'Keefe (12:33)
Hmm?

Megan Hamilton (12:35)
overflowing abundant ⁓ fruit garden. So I love that this you know that she came up and there's the idea too of I think really it's the abundance that's speaking to me especially with what Erin was referring to earlier with you know this kind of never-ending ability to be able to access books and I know from working with Jillian before

your love of the library, Jillian, and the ways that you've explored it. And listening to you both talk about how you feel about books, what books mean to you, the different philosophies and culture around books is a great reminder of how powerful it can be when you actually take a look at the stuff that you like to figure out why you like it.

Erin Vandeven (13:26)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (13:29)
Because it'd be very easy to just say, ⁓ I love books to pass the time. Right? But when you get into the deep heart of it and find so much powerful meaning for yourselves, it takes on a whole other realm. And I think that's where the meaning making and the magic part comes in. Right? Because it'd be easy for us to say, yeah, I mean, I like books. I read them all the time.

But to really go into it and discover the meaning, and in some ways that's kind of like spirituality.

you have this deeper connection to what you're doing and it makes it feel a bit more magical because you know why you're doing it. Would you, how would you both agree with that?

Erin Vandeven (14:20)
Well, I had this actually this very strong emotional reaction while hearing you kind of describe that and I had like my nose started to tingle and my eyes prickled with tears because I think that ⁓ you've like really honed in on I think the most important part of Medium Lady Reads for Jillian and I which is about ⁓ taking care of yourself. Taking care of yourself by

looking at what you like and choosing more of what you like when it comes to reading. so ⁓ that's kind of those are kind of the emotions that kind of came to my mind and I forgot the framing of your question so maybe Jillian can take it.

Megan Hamilton (15:03)
It

was it was a poorly framed question. It was basically how do you agree with me, which doesn't give me the option doesn't give you the option to disagree with me and also. But yeah, I I certainly get that idea of, you know, even just and I know your podcast and I know both of you as well, but even just listening to you talk about it, it's like, yeah, yeah, this is this is beyond what we might.

Erin Vandeven (15:09)
You

Megan Hamilton (15:32)
generally think about this as an activity. This has become, you know, as you say, Erin, an act of self-care. As you say, Jillian, you have like tangible memories from, you know, vivid memories of childhood and the safety that would come from sitting with a book and a, in a nice space where you felt happy and good and, you know, taking care of yourself, right? Going back to again, your nervous system, allowing your nervous system to

Jillian O'Keefe (15:57)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (16:01)
settle and find some kind of safety in that. ⁓

So last summer I asked for recommendations for witchy books and Erin sent me so many ideas. Do remember that Erin? Like I think I asked you and you were like, ⁓ have I got an answer for you? I think you sent me about seven or eight recommendations and the ones that I chose, I just absolutely loved. Can each of you share with us your favorite book that involved magic or witches in some way?

Erin Vandeven (16:24)
Yeah.

Jillian O'Keefe (16:38)
⁓ boy, ⁓ I'm going to have to say the discovery of witches might be my favorite. I can't really remember everything that it's about. I'm terrible at recalling the premise of books after the fact, after I've read them, I'm sort of like, what's the saying? Like vibes only. I, but it was, I just remember it being so excellent.

Megan Hamilton (16:51)
my gosh, me too.

Yeah.

I love that. I love it. I'm the same. I've always said, you know, I have way more books available to me than most people because I can read the same book and not even know that I've read it. I'll be like, ⁓ this seems kind of familiar. And then I'm like, yeah, it's because I read it last year. How about you, Erin?

Jillian O'Keefe (17:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Vandeven (17:26)
Yeah, I mean, I knew you were gonna ask this question and I did pull up like five or six other books.

so it's really hard to pick a favourite because as you mentioned, ⁓ books about witches feature books and so it's very common I think for readers to feel really attracted to books about witches because there is that really wonderful overlap. So it's really hard to choose.

Megan Hamilton (17:55)
Yeah. So, ⁓ Erin, what about you?

Do you have a favorite kind of magic book?

Erin Vandeven (18:03)
Well, I think having a favourite is really challenging because ⁓ I feel like books and witchcraft are really overlap and books about witches are also very, ⁓ very, very common. so reading books about magic or witches or ⁓ any kind of, you know, supernatural... ⁓

Megan Hamilton (18:07)
You

Erin Vandeven (18:26)
plot lines are something that I'm naturally really drawn to. So I do read a high volume of books, but I did I did do a quick overview of books that I've read recently and one book that's been a favorite this year is called Junie by Erin Crosby Eckstein. This is a book about a young girl. She has to face this kind of life altering decision and she decides ⁓ she's an enslaved girl in the middle of civil war. She decides to awaken her sister's ghost.

using what is called root craft. So in the black spiritual community. this book isn't specifically wouldn't use the word witch or witchcraft, but it's definitely about ⁓ connections to supernatural connections to nature. And after she releases her sister's ghost, it doesn't quite go as she expected. And so the series, the plot, the plot thickens and unfolds. That's a really amazing book.

I do really like also reading books about ⁓ magic from different cultures or witchcraft in different cultures and the naming conventions that people use because oftentimes this is also layered with like womanhood and education and teaching and so it's often a great way that other women invite people in to learn more about their cultures. ⁓ So that's always something that I'm trying to keep top of mind in my reading so I would highly recommend Juni by ⁓ Erin Crosby-Exteem.

Megan Hamilton (19:50)
Hmm. I love that. ⁓ I'm going to share. ⁓ I'm similar. Like I've always really enjoyed ⁓ anything really fantasy, anything that's sort of like beyond our current, you know, what we believe to be ⁓ empirically true. And ⁓ actually, this book was given to me by a mutual friend of ours, Jillian Erica Tebbins. ⁓ And have you have you all read this book?

Jillian O'Keefe (20:17)
Mmm. Mm-mm.

Megan Hamilton (20:19)
Witchcraft for Wayward Girls

Jillian O'Keefe (20:20)
No.

Erin Vandeven (20:22)
No, but I have read other books by Grady Hendrix.

Megan Hamilton (20:22)
by Grady Hendricks. Yeah, this is really, this was something else. I found it, I find when people are getting harmed, very difficult to read. Like I find, or if people are being abused or like not treated well. And I know like it's a, I understand it's a device. I know that it's important.

Erin Vandeven (20:34)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (20:44)
⁓ And I just get really stressed out as it's happening. Like right now I'm reading a book called The Greenwood and ⁓ or Greenwood. I have either of you read that book. OK, I'll talk. We could talk about it later. But yes, so there's like this whole stressful section with like a baby. And I'm just like, my God, it's really hard. I just find myself wanting to get through it. But this one is incredible. And not only that, it teaches you about.

Erin Vandeven (20:54)
No.

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Keefe (21:05)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (21:11)
kind of a very particularly crappy ⁓ time in American history and how they would deal with ⁓ pregnant teens. So, ⁓ but there's, you know, there's lots of fun revenge and all that. And then this one I picked up from threads actually, which is interesting because it's about strings. Have either of you read this one or do you know this author at all? I should read it actually for people who are

Erin Vandeven (21:23)
Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Keefe (21:37)
No.

Erin Vandeven (21:37)
No,

that's great.

Megan Hamilton (21:39)
Listening spells strings and forgotten things by Brianne Randall and what I didn't know when I got it because you know threads is really good with an algorithm and I didn't realize it was I think it's called a romantic So it's like way Sexier than I was expecting it to be which is fine like it's super fun, but I was like, ⁓

Erin Vandeven (21:58)
⁓ yeah? Yeah.

Sure.

Megan Hamilton (22:08)
Like, okay. ⁓ And this one I found to be just like ⁓ a really, really easy read, you know, like ⁓ with lots of sort of ⁓ universally understood ⁓ concepts of witches. And so, you know, like the one of the characters would wear socks that had, you know, black cats on them and stuff like that. Right. It would go into sort of what we what we know, what we sometimes call the Halloween witch, which

Erin Vandeven (22:18)
Mmm.

Megan Hamilton (22:37)
You know, we love I know Jillian for sure loves Halloween and we love. Yeah. So that one was pretty fun. And then the third one I wanted to share and I talked about this on the podcast before is ⁓ nonfiction and it's called Practical Magic by Mitch Horowitz. And it's about like actual magic practices and how to do them. But it's rooted in history and origins and takes a look at

Jillian O'Keefe (22:40)
I do.

Erin Vandeven (22:43)
Hehehehehe

Megan Hamilton (23:06)
some of the different ways that we think about this stuff and maybe why we have thought about certain things. It brings in research, especially because that's his specialty around ESP and psychic abilities and the actual vast amount of research that has been done on this stuff that, you know, still gets sort of shrugged off in ⁓ regular science communities. ⁓ And I'm finding that

And those are just three because I know you both have talked about this before and Aaron, I've seen you talk about this and I was listening to your most recent podcast and I talked about this earlier as well scrolling. Right scrolling on our phones and we're going to acknowledge that.

Erin Vandeven (23:51)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (23:56)
These are difficult times in the world. There's a lot going on. Everything feels quite stressful. And not only that, it has been a number of years of this, right? If we go back to lockdowns and sort of huge shifts that way and navigating all of that, we still never really recovered because everybody was like, we're just going to go right back into things. ⁓ Nevermind sort of trauma recovery of, you know, what we all collectively went through. And that's the

I don't want to say the easy, but you know, like in terms of what else was happening in the world, we kind of had it easy compared to, you know, a lot of other countries who were already ensnared in war or difficulty and then had to also navigate this. So. At this particular point in time, things that help keep us a little bit numb from all of the stress and the pain that's going on, like scrolling.

you know, we understand why it's happening, but for me, I was realizing, and especially with, you know, you all helped me with this to remember how magical books are. And I didn't want to feel like I couldn't read anymore. Like I didn't have the focus for it, or I didn't have the ability to use this. ⁓ so what I started to do was I put my phone in another room at nighttime.

Erin Vandeven (25:16)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Keefe (25:24)
Hmm.

Megan Hamilton (25:25)
And I don't, know, you know, as silly as it sounds, that was really hard. I was like, what if my mom calls and she needs me? Cause we don't have a landline anymore. Like, you know, what if I get an important tech, like whatever I was thinking. And I was like, what about my alarm? And was like, okay, I can make it so that certain people can get through no matter what. Done.

Erin Vandeven (25:33)
Mm-hmm. No, believe it.

Jillian O'Keefe (25:33)
Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (25:52)
I can get a different alarm system in the mornings, right? And then since then, I've read like 10 books. I know, thank you. And, you know, I wonder.

Jillian O'Keefe (26:00)
amazing.

Erin Vandeven (26:03)
Way to go.

Megan Hamilton (26:12)
Do you all see reading as...

and I'm sure you've talked about this before as well.

There's a difference between using your spare time scrolling through Instagram, then reading a book, right? There's a difference in terms of how you're choosing to spend your time. And I think going back to this idea of, you know, the magic and it in whatever, you know, way that that speaks to you, right?

There's something beyond just the sitting there and reading a book. There's something else I find that happens when you're reading. And that's what I might call the magic of it. Do you both know what I'm talking about when I say that?

Jillian O'Keefe (27:06)
Yeah, I think so. It's sitting there, sinking into a book, letting the world wash over you, escaping reality and in just enjoying what you're seeing on the page. It's it is a magical feeling for sure. And it's not something that you can get when you're scrolling. It's not something you can get no matter even if you follow only, you know,

positive upbeat people on Instagram or tik-tok or whatever there's there's something about a book that you can't get anywhere else and I'm speaking mostly to novels. I mean you don't really You don't really get this when you're reading nonfiction, which I mean maybe that's not true for something like practical magic, but Novels especially you get to sink into somebody else's world

and just escape what's going on around you. Sometimes I feel like I come out of a trance if I'm in that good of a book. It's a nice, it's a fun, fun feeling.

Megan Hamilton (28:13)
Totally.

I dream about the characters. I wonder what they would do in certain situations that I'm in. I think about them as though they're my friends, right? Which is always so strange when you forget them later.

Erin Vandeven (28:18)
Hehehehehe

Jillian O'Keefe (28:24)
Yeah. Yep.

Absolutely the friends

part for sure. I always especially in a lot of romance novels I find that I'm like start relating to the people and they're my friends then

Megan Hamilton (28:40)
But then you can see how that activates. It's something in your brain that probably is like friendship with a like a tangible person, like a person that you that you know in real life and and to have a, you know, ⁓ a tool, let's say to recreate that for yourself.

feels like as you were saying earlier, an act of self care, right?

Erin Vandeven (29:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Keefe (29:07)
Yeah.

Yep.

Erin Vandeven (29:08)
Well, I think whenever I think about self-care, I have to think about the antecedent, which is what do I need? Because there's lots of different ways to self-care, quote unquote. And one of the things the Medium Lady Talks, the sister podcast to Medium Lady Reads is focused on for the summer, is rest and real rest. And thinking about the seven types of rest,

Books are very unique in that they can be a tool for lots of different kinds of care. They can be a tool to meet your needs in lots of different ways. Sometimes you need to just sit down and if you're reading, if you're reading a physical book, you can use that physical book as the permission slip to sit down, to stop moving, to rest your body in a way that's maybe not passive like sleeping.

but might be active as you sit and turn the pages of the book, as your brain reads, you're getting rest of a different kind of a physical kind. Simple people use books as a way of gaining sensory rest. That's often where people switch out from the scroll, which can be overstimulating, overwhelming, switching to a book, especially again, a print copy of a book, you know, it's analog, it's black and white, you turn the page, it doesn't have many more bells and whistles than that.

And then there's other things like spiritual rest or mental rest or emotional rest, social rest. A lot of people can find really wonderful ways of meeting their needs to feel connection through a book club. We have an amazing buddy reads chat. Jillian and I were a part of with two other women, people we talked to pretty much every day. And our primary connection is about books and about what we're reading. So I think that books are

Books are like a physical object. They're very beautiful. They're very fun to hold in our hands. They feel like something important. ⁓ But as a tool, they can serve multiple purposes. And I think that's the big difference between your phone and a book when it comes to self-care. I've never personally, outside of maybe using the timer app or maybe a guided meditation,

found my phone to be a super useful tool when it comes to self-care, at least not in a sustainable way. There's all little things like you might have a running app or you might have you might have a there's all kinds of little different things but at the end of the day ⁓ everything on your phone is designed to keep you on your phone and nothing about a book is designed to keep you reading except the words on the page.

Megan Hamilton (31:33)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

and accept your decision. Right. And that's something I was thinking about as both of you were talking about, ⁓ talking about books. It is that ⁓ with a phone, you know, you can. ⁓ What's it called? What's DNR? No, what's the one I'm looking at? Do not finish DNF. You can just keep DNFing, right? You can be like, I don't like this immediately. I'm going to DNF it. I mean,

Erin Vandeven (31:56)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Megan Hamilton (32:23)
DNF again is do not finish. I'm bringing book culture into internet culture. And you're just like, I don't like this. I'm going to move on or like you're just looking at Instagram stories. Like, please somebody do something interesting. I like that. Please something do something interesting. I like that with a book, you're stuck with the story. And you have to, I mean, I know for my daughter, she likes to, sometimes she needs to go to the end to make sure that somebody made it or that like.

Jillian O'Keefe (32:27)
hahahaha

Erin Vandeven (32:36)
you

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (32:50)
⁓ Everybody's okay or she'll ask me a question if she knows that I've read the book because it's too stressful for her to not know, which I actually remember at that age as well. And that is something about, you know, with a YouTube ⁓ video, for example, you can just like skip forward and see, you know, what's going to happen with a book you can. But, you know, ⁓ usually you just kind of have to make it through or else you're to miss stuff.

Erin Vandeven (32:57)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (33:17)
And it is a decision to be focused on one particular thing, even though it's a story full of all kinds of other stuff. Or if it's nonfiction, you know, you're learning a bunch of different things. But the focus and I think that's, you know, part of what I was noticing in terms of my phone was I just didn't have the capacity to stay focused for however long it takes to get through a book because I was just so used to.

Erin Vandeven (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (33:46)
zip, zip,

zip, zip, zipping through. ⁓

Jillian O'Keefe (33:48)
Yeah.

Erin Vandeven (33:49)
It does

take a bit of a transition and even Jillian and I who read a lot of books every year, we have ebbs and flows in our attention and we'll talk about that on the podcast where we feel like we're scrolling more than we're reaching for a book and we're just admitting that and giving ourselves grace. Focus and attention, I think we want to think of it as a static thing. You're either good at focusing or you're bad at focusing, especially with a lot of the conversation about ADHD out there on social media right now.

Jillian O'Keefe (33:59)
Yes.

Erin Vandeven (34:19)
think like your focus is an organic part of your of your being and it will come and it will go and there are times when I can't no matter how good a book is it's just I just can't focus on it and I'm struggling to kind of make my way through and there's lots of little tips and tricks if you ⁓ feel like you want to kind of tinker with that but the first and foremost thing is that you know ⁓

Megan, like your habits have gone in the direction that you feel really satisfied making your way through those books and you might hit a phase where that focus wanes a little bit and that's okay and that's really normal and it doesn't mean that you're gonna give up on your love of reading or give up on your love of books. Jillian, you probably have a lot of thoughts on that.

Megan Hamilton (35:03)
Yeah.

Jillian O'Keefe (35:07)
No, I agree with everything that you said, to be honest. I think that it's very true that, you know, the ebbs and flows and, and, know, the, the, the need to sometimes just scroll, even though we, know, just saying that it's not exactly the most useful way to spend our time. It's, it's sometimes you just need that. Sometimes you do need to just scroll and zone out.

Megan Hamilton (35:36)
Yeah. Well, and Jillian, you and I have talked about this a lot in terms of building positive habits for ourselves because you and I both started on sort of an exercise journey together a few years ago. I got my elliptical machine.

And because it's in my house, I use it. And I, you know, like it wasn't easy at first and Jillian, you and I talked about this a ton. Things happen in your life that get you like out of, you know, I had, was doing this somatic reset course and she was like, really didn't want you to exercise for the month. So then I was like really nervous that I wouldn't be able to come back to it afterwards.

⁓ And it was slow going after, but I did get back onto it and sort of developing those habits because Jillian, you and I would sort of post about it and then cheer each other on in our DMs. And we still do that. I actually have gotten out of the habit of posting about my sweaty ⁓ post workout pics. But I do know that when I was, you people would be like, ⁓ you inspired me to exercise today. Or, you know, you inspired me to

⁓ to like go for a walk or something like that. And so there's this like positive reverberation around my and you're very, very hot.

Erin Vandeven (36:56)
Hehehehehe

Megan Hamilton (36:57)
sweaty exercise picks. And I love that, you know, it's the idea of and going back to what Erin was saying, these healthy habits that we make for ourselves, they also have to be flexible. It can't be all or nothing.

Jillian O'Keefe (36:59)
Yep, yep.

Erin Vandeven (37:13)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (37:15)
⁓ yeah, I love that the idea that it can ebb and flow and we can trust ourselves. Self-efficacy is a really big ⁓ core tentative mind in terms of what I like to talk about and what I like to do. And the idea that you can trust yourself, that you'll come back to the habits that you like when you're ready and that you can give yourself grace in the moment for not maybe doing things.

I say perfect, I never, I'm not a perfectionist. Like I don't care about perfect. ⁓ But we do have this idea of like feeling like we need to do things like exactly the way we set out because there's like a plan and ⁓ trusting yourself that you can come back to.

positive ways of that whatever's happening in the moment is there for a reason.

Erin Vandeven (38:10)
Yeah, I think it's about taking the time to get to know what reading means to you and how it's serving your needs. Because it is a habit and once it kind of becomes a habit, I get disconnected all the time from why I read. Like why is it important to me to read?

Megan Hamilton (38:27)
Right.

Erin Vandeven (38:30)
You know, I could now I could say like, well, I have this podcast with Jillian and I'm committed to show up with three book reviews every two weeks. So like, I don't want to be that girl. Like, whatever. Right. When really, like, it's not that serious and it would be fine.

Megan Hamilton (38:42)
I can't really imagine Jillian

getting mad at you.

Erin Vandeven (38:44)
Right? Exactly. Like everything that I just said is ridiculous and Jillian's wonderful person and it really doesn't matter. But I do think that again it's about like thinking about the needs that the habit is serving and creating the right recipe in your reading to meet your needs. Because it may mean reading a lot of romance. It may mean not reading what everybody else is reading. It may mean rereading a lot of your comfort books. And there's a lot of like

fake rhetoric about what's real reading and what's not reading and I think that that, Jillian and I talk on the podcast we have a segment called Hot Takes where we review something in the rhetoric of reading in book culture. Book culture is very very alive and well on bookstagram and book talk.

Megan Hamilton (39:17)
yeah.

Erin Vandeven (39:30)
And for good or for bad, a lot of people have a lot of opinions, but there's always like a bit of a blurb, a bit of something to talk about. So we always joke that a hot take is ⁓ an opinion formed off the cuff, usually with little research, often a little bit provocative and spicy. So I think even in the context of like, what is good reading? What is bad reading? What is a good reading habit? What is a bad reading habit? It's all just like part of the noise.

And sometimes that can be really challenging as a reader to kind of tampen down the noise and realize at the end of the day, it's just you and the book. And if that relationship between you and whatever book you're reading right now isn't serving you, the book doesn't have feelings. So you should be putting that book down and trying to find something that's going to meet your needs from a book perspective, wherever you're at. And then the habit stuff is really just about like, I don't know, you know, I mean, ⁓

I go back and forth on James Clear, but you know, he did kind of ⁓ land on some some really effective things about like, is it obvious in your home that you want to be reading? Do you have books around? ⁓ Is it attractive? Do you have books that you're excited to read around or are these books that you bought seven years ago and you they're just collecting dust on your shelf and you're like, well, I guess I could read that dusty old book like make it attractive, ⁓ make it easy to read, you know, for a lot of people.

⁓ I keep talking to a lot of women in their 40s that reading print is not fitting into their lifestyle right now and they're consuming reams of books by audio. Make it easy for you to read and then make it satisfying. And the satisfying part can be tricky for a lot of people. Satisfying to me, I love tracking my reading. That's extremely satisfying to see the types of books that I'm reading, the diversity that I'm reading.

I have an excessive spreadsheet that allows me to break things down by month, by genre, etc. That's what makes it satisfying for me. For other people it might be satisfying to talk about a book in community and to learn from others who are experienced in the same book as you. So I do think again, and then what makes it satisfying right now isn't necessarily going to be what makes it satisfying next year. And then just like accepting that your reading habit is there to serve you, you're not a servant to...

Megan Hamilton (41:26)
Hmm.

Erin Vandeven (41:47)
read the books themselves.

Megan Hamilton (41:51)
⁓ I am just, loving this conversation so much. It's intersecting with so many things that I'm interested in. And what is striking to me ⁓ as to hear you talk and to really, you know, both of you really get into the philosophy and the mechanics of what reading is to you and how it can be flexible and fluid and how there, you know, there's like magical elements to it and how it can be used for self care. It occurs to me that

In fact, really understanding why you love reading and what you love about reading and honoring yourself in the part of in the act of reading, right? Liking the books that you like, everybody else's opinions be damned. You've done the thing, which is a lot of people say when something feels special, they're like, I don't want to look at it too much because they don't want to ruin the magic of it.

Erin Vandeven (42:33)
Mm-hmm.

you

Megan Hamilton (42:50)
Right.

But instead, what's happened is you've looked at it so deeply that you've connected to it in such a meaningful way and been able to explore yourselves through your choices around reading that it's become way more magical because it has capacity now. Right. It has ⁓

Erin Vandeven (42:57)
Ha!

Jillian O'Keefe (43:13)
Yes.

Megan Hamilton (43:18)
⁓ thoughtfulness and meaning and ⁓ you know it's like a tool ⁓ in a lot of ways and also it's just fun like it's you know it's not like you have to get like you have to totally understand every little thing that you're doing and why you're doing it however the act of exploring yourself and who you are through your choices and your love of reading is kind of profound and magical

the opposite of destroying the magic instead intensifying it.

Jillian O'Keefe (43:47)
Yes.

Yeah. I've spent so much time delving into why I like reading and the books that I like and the genres that call to me and all of that. And it's never once dulled reading for me. And like you, like you were saying, it made it more intense. made me love it more every time I spend on Goodreads or

on Book Talk or Bookstagram and I'm scrolling and I'm finding books and I'm adding books to my list on Goodreads. All of that just makes it more exciting and more fun for me. So yeah, I completely agree with you.

Megan Hamilton (44:36)
It's just about way more than reading books. It's a full culture ⁓ and life choices around it.

Jillian O'Keefe (44:40)
It is.

Yeah, absolutely.

Megan Hamilton (44:49)
What? mean, that's life. It's so good.

Erin Vandeven (44:49)
Yeah, and it can get to a place where

you really love the reader side of yourself. And it's really hard, I don't know, maybe it's not hard for you, but it can be really hard to really immerse yourself in self-love. It's very challenging. There's a lot of limiting beliefs, internal rhetoric, external messaging and conditioning that teaches us that we aren't lovable. But if you can isolate the reader side of yourself, I have found

personally that the reader side of me is very easy to love and that can trickle into other areas of life and Jillian and I reflect that on our podcast all the time where we'll say to one another you really love that or you really get funny about this kind of thing and it's done in a loving way where we also have been able to connect over our readers the reader sides of ourselves and demonstrate love and affection for that part that part of ourselves ⁓

is probably a little bit more accessible than some other parts of ourselves that are maybe craving a bit of love.

Megan Hamilton (45:58)
away. This conversation is probably gone down a different path than people expected. But what it's ultimately doing is really showing us the magic, right of books, which is going into a deep love of yourself or specifically the reader part of yourself. And that's, know, if you're into ⁓ internal family systems, ⁓ then that might be ⁓ that might be something

Erin Vandeven (46:10)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (46:28)
that you might be able to ⁓ explore as well. So I wanna close out on a topic that I know is very important to both of you. There's a great piece by Naomi Klein called, Librarianship is a Radical Profession, and that's from 2003. And I'll post it in the show notes. For folks who tend to be introverted and who don't like crowds, I think one of the most subtle but effective ways to keep fighting against dictatorship and censorship.

Erin Vandeven (46:43)
You

Megan Hamilton (46:57)
Why would we need to do that? Who knows? Is getting a library card. And one of my favorite things is how librarians are often the most progressive and rebellious folks out there. I remember certain libraries extending their audio book reach to places where book bands had become part of the norm. And there's kind of this subterfuge of librarians doing all of this sort of like secret but powerful work.

Erin Vandeven (47:01)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (47:25)
under the radar and I'm wondering why do you think that is?

Jillian O'Keefe (47:33)
Go ahead, Erin.

Erin Vandeven (47:35)
Well, it's because libraries are probably the only place that remain free of capitalism. Free, maybe I'll use that loosely. There's certainly, libraries participate in the market of books, but...

It's one of the only places you can go and you don't have to exchange money for resources. And because of that, it becomes a great equalizer in society. And because libraries take up physical space, it means they become physical reminders of the fact that it is important in society to have places where you can go, where you don't need to have money to access resources.

And so I think librarians by nature understand that very deeply, the flattening of capitalism, the willingness to step outside of the market in order to uphold the good of society. And I think because librarians deeply understand that, that they also are very connected to the ways in which they have to rebel against every other part of a capitalist white supremacist patriarchal society.

Megan Hamilton (48:49)
⁓ And Jillian, I know that that is absolutely how you feel because ⁓ it's what your talk was about.

Jillian O'Keefe (49:01)
Yeah. Yep. Back

when I was in thriving visibility, I wrote a talk all about all about how the ⁓ library is is free and it's one of the only places left that's free that you can go in and not be expected to buy something.

Megan Hamilton (49:21)
And we talked at the time as well about how ⁓ getting library books stimulates the same part of your brain as buying something.

Jillian O'Keefe (49:30)
Yep, yep, every time I still do it, every time I am feeling low or I need a reward, I will go on. I'll find a book that I've been meaning to request or I'll find a new one that I just feel like is the next great book and I'll request it from the library. And it's exciting. I have probably...

this time probably about 14 or 15 books on hold at the library, not waiting for me, but they're, you know, waiting to be arrived, waiting to arrive and then get picked up.

Megan Hamilton (50:10)
It's like this never-ending road of treats that's available to you that you don't have to ever lose because you know, if times are tough or whatever. So with that in mind, everybody, if you don't have a library card, go find where your local library is and get yourself a library card, even just as an act of rebellion against.

Jillian O'Keefe (50:15)
Yes, yes.

Erin Vandeven (50:16)
Mm-hmm.

Megan Hamilton (50:38)
the systems that we're starting to see not starting the systems that are showing themselves more clearly in these present times. Listen you both. I am so grateful that you ⁓ that you've both been with me here today talking about these really important and beautiful ⁓ topics and

You know, I love the sort of the specifics of our conversation in terms of books and why we love books and the magic of it, but also the sort of even like deeper ⁓ conversation about how to make meaning out of things, which is really important to me, like finding meaning in the things that I like to do really help anchor it for me. And it just reminds us of, you know, ⁓

again going back to Our Lady, The Nine of Pentacles and something that I've been focusing on this year is the magic of aliveness of the things that we like, of the joy that's in the every day, of you know the magic of water, right? Like you know it sounds ridiculous to say but it is sort of you think about it and ⁓ you know tides and ⁓ how our body is made and like how we need it and what it does for the earth like

Jillian O'Keefe (51:58)
Hmm?

Megan Hamilton (52:02)
giving ourselves the opportunities to really explore the bigger picture of the stuff that we take for granted every day, I think is what at least a part of actual magic, tangible magic is. And so I'm grateful for you both for ⁓ coming today and sharing your incredible love of books and why you love books.

Jillian O'Keefe (52:28)
Pleasure. Thank you for having us.

Erin Vandeven (52:28)
Thanks for having us.

Megan Hamilton (52:31)
⁓ Okay, so I'm going to you're going to definitely want to make sure that you're subscribed to Erin and Jillian's podcast and Erin's podcast. And I'm going to I'm going to post all that stuff, but you can find all of the information and takeaways from today's episode in the show notes or at embracing enchantment dot com. And while you're there, leave us a voice note and we might feature it on a future episode. Subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love for you to leave a review.

You can find out more about Erin and Jillian and Medium Lady Reads in the show notes. You're gonna wanna make sure you're subscribed because we have some exciting episodes coming up and you can catch up on previous episodes where we talk with Patrick Hallahan from my favorite band, My Morning Jacket, about music and magic, with Pam Grossman about being a witch and how to collaborate with creativity, about tarot, human design, the question of whether magic is real and I think we kind of answered that question again today.

and so much more. Until then, here's to building an enchanted life.